Very concerned about a mum who comes to my class.

[meggmoo]

Long post, bear with me.
Today, following the class that I run, whilst I was packing up said girl asked if I wanted to go for a coffee. We ended up chatting about her ds (who is gorgeous) and was there. It turns out that he has never slept for longer than about 2.5 hours in any period even through the night. He is now 8.5 months.
I asked her if she had tried any methods e.g. CC or PUPD - she hadn't. Anyway we continued to talk and she burst into tears and couldn't stop. I had to take her ds and calm him down/amuse him whilst she let it all out
She has no support from family and her dh doesn't sound too brilliant as he believes he should get his 8 hours sleep a night before trotting off to work and told me that she has been surviving on strong coffee and red bull. She looks a wreck and is only 21!
I have offered to take her ds for her for about 3 hours a week on the proviso that she sleeps during that time just so she can catch up then I also suggested that perhaps it may be the right time to put some kind of method in place to try to crack her ds's sleeping.
The reason I'm posting is because I feel really responsible for her - she's a lovely girl but just crumbling before my eyes. I don't want to appear too full on but I really want to help.
Does anyone have any ideas? I think she should try (just for starters) to at least get a lie in at during the weekend or a few hours sleep during the pm whilst her dh looks after their son and I know she is doing the following:
She baths him at about 10pm
puts him to bed about 11pm - gives him a rusk as he is hungry - then he wakes every 2 or so hours.

I don't really know where to start!

SL - we're quite far from you - but thanks for the offer.

TLWTSWAT - will look at th elink,
Thanks.

If he does not sleep in the day, he is probably over tired in the evening (like my DD is) and needs to go to bed earlier than 10pm. I think when they are really small it is easy to take them up to bed with you when you go up but as they get older they need an earlier bedtime as they are more active.

Maybe get her a book on routines? Not necessarily GF! Sounds like she jsut needs general parenting info and support, have you suggested meeting other Mums at P and Ts?

WCL. Yes I wondered if GF may be a bit full on. I am taking her to a few M&T groups week after next I want to try to encourage her to go out a bit more without her getting too reliant on me. I'm not being selfish but just think it may make matters worse if she becomes too dependant on me.

I'd like to give her an idea of what's out there for her and her ds.

I know what you mean, you are not being tight on her, it would be worse to let her get really attached and then get cheesed off about it, kwim? You are doing everything you can and I think certainly the right thing with support and encouragement

I've tried to find a suitable parenting type book but theya re either very "crunchy" or extremely militant I've not got it but was wondering about Miriam Stoppard book?

baby care book

Maybe?

agree with westcountrylass, 10pm is very late and 30 mins in day not enough of a nap. Sounds odd but if he is up until 10pm he must be really tired.
She should cut down on feeding if she is feeding him at night. 8.5mo old shouldn't need nighttime feeds. Is he active and eating well in the day? I agree a good routine of bath, cuddles, story, milk, settle for bed at about 7.30pm would be a good idea. He needs to get that habit anyway.

My ds was exactly the same. It is maddening and I was literally suicidal from lack of sleep. The No Cry Sleep Solution by Elizabeth Pantley was an absolute lifesaver, although I did wind up incorporating a little cc along with her other suggestions. Some babies are just really, really bad sleepers. Even with everything, ds still got up once for a feed until well after a year old. He does finally sleep through, thank goodness.

oh poor girl, ds (9 months) has been an terrible sleeper, just improving, it really destroys confidence too. my dp takes him away for brek from 7.30-9 every morning, it's a really good idea for her dp to take a 'shift' even if its only weekly to start with.

also p&t groups really good, if she can arrange the nap(s) around them. getting the baby properly exhausted is key to our shoddy little routine (which is based around meals not kips). here it is...
6am - wail, into our bed, bf (if wake before 6 i try to get back into cot)
7.30 - up with dp, breakfast, play etc
9am - i take over
10.30 - sleep for 45 mins. or not at all
12 - lunch
1.30-3 p&t / walk / activity if poss
3-4 sleep (if lucky)
4.30 bath (earlier if no pm nap)
5pm - dinner / scream
7pm - bf (sleep if no nap pm) or play till
8.30pm - bed. dp does this.

have not mentioned the nighttime - ds wakes 2-3 times usually, sometimes more. but it's been so much easier to deal with if i know he'll sleep once or twice in the day.

Anywhere near Ashford Kent? Will willingly help out if you are.

IMO, you only can sort sleeping problems once that feeding problems are out of the way. The more the child eats during the day the less times he will need to wake up for a feed at night. A rusk before nightime is not exactly enough to keep him satisfied through the night.

Once she gets a good feeding structure for him during the day, the chances of the kid going to sleep for long are much better and
other get-to-sleep methods are more likely to succeed.

SM - yes we're not that far from Ashford.
Chandra - I'm not sure what else he has to eat but I am pretty sure he is a good eater - e.g. lunch, dinner, milk etc.

meggmo - what about her contacting homestart

This is what they do
Home-Start's informal and friendly support for families with young children provides a lifeline to thousands of parents and children

Our support is free, confidential and non-judgemental. In fact, almost 25% of families refer themselves to Home-Start - which speaks for itself. We help to increase the confidence and independence of families by:

Visiting families in their own homes to offer support, friendship and practical assistance
Reassuring parents that their childcare problems are not unusual or unique
Encouraging parents' strengths and emotional well-being for the ultimate benefit of their children
Trying to get the fun back into family life

Often though about contacting them myself!!!

ok, 2.5 hour stretches of sleep at that age would have been heaven to me - my dd was waking up to 3 times an hour to comfort nurse. But meggmooo, ... if your friend is finding it hard to cope, then anything for a good sleep. Could I suggest she takes her ds into bed with her and see if that reduces the night wakings. Even if there is no improvement, he is just next to her and she can, without waking fully, rock/pat/dummy him to sleep. If her dh doesn't like the arrangement, he can sleep in another bed/sofa. Co-sleeping is not that bad, esp if everybody gets more sleep as a result. In fact, I really like it.

Thanks for these.

BS- I did suggest co sleeping when we first talked but she won't do it as she fears that if she sleeps too heavily she'll squash her ds meaning she wouldn't sleep properly anyway. Fio and Swedish mum I am so touched at your offers - I'm not sure how she would feel about accepting the help but thank you.

I was thinking - whilst she tries to put her life back together I may suggest she and her dh go out for an evening (quite early) and I could babysit for her.

Anyway - she did call me this morning and I was filled with concern when I heard her voice but she was ringing to thank me.

She tried CC last night and it took an hour for him to get off to sleep (in 4 minute intervals of her going in and shhshhing him) then he woke up after an hour, then she did CC again and it worked after 35 minutes and he slept for 6 hours straight! How cool is that.

She has offered me her house and jewellery! I have told her to expect it to get worse before it gets better (just thinking it may have been beginners luck)

There's an article on routines and sleep consultants in this saturdays Times so I am going to get it for her as a guide.

gf actually does a book just on sleeping which i found very useful you can just follow her advice on sleep without all the strict routine stuff amd there is loads of case studies in it

NNC-
Which book is that?

its gina ford the complete sleep guide for contented babies and contented toddlers it offers loads of advice and i found i could relate to the case studies its still quite strict on routine but only at bedtime / naptime doesnt mention all the other stuff feeding etc and i found it really worked for me