Are you a Scottish Lawyer? Is it really that bad?!

[Hoolet]

I'm considering going back to get an LLB on an accelerated programme designed for graduates. I love intellectual challenge, have good reasoning and analytical skills, proven academic ability, etc.

But, everyone I mention this to - and much of the internet research I've done - is negative about the law. 'Very family unfriendly', 'very hard to get a training contract', 'your age will count against you' (34), 'evil partners', 'no jobs around', etc, etc.

The course is expensive, but we could do it without debt (just) and I could also stay on for a Masters which at this stage I think I would love to do. However, in most circumstances I feel only a total fool would proceed with this much warning given by experienced people. And yet, and yet...

Should I forget it? Is it that bad? Are there less well remunerated career paths in Law that I could look at that would be satisfying?

Wow, Active Convos's moving fast this morning. Got to bump.

lunchtime bump

Hello. Don't know if will be of much help, but here goes:

I was a criminal court lawyer pre-children. It was hopeless, as obviously you have to be in court when the case is on, and can't ask everyone to drop everything as it's nursery pick up time. It was not particularly well paid either; couldn't have paid a nanny. I worked for a small firm, as most court firms are, and they were very good about things like time off for kid stuff, and so on, basically as long as the job was done they were happy. I did, howver, get the feeling when I got married and had children, I was no longer "one of the boys",and didn't fit in as well as I had done when fancy free

I then took a job in the public sector. It was supposedly family friendly, with flexi-time, but was hopeless as I had to use flexi time to go kids' doctor's appointments and so on, but never had time to make it up, because I had to look after children! Anyway, I did not like the lack of autonomy in that job so moved on. It was also very badly paid and the work itself did not compensate for that.

I then began doing what I do now: sitting on tribunals. The work is only a few days a month, and much better paid. However, it is ad hoc so I never know when I will be working, so again would not be cost effective to pay for childcare. DH now looks after kids while I work. He is also a lawyer, and a partner, so has some flexibility.

I loved my criminal law job, but it is not for everyone, and since I stopped doing it people have to work very very hard for ever decresing returns. This is the same with civil court work, and both would be very difficut to combine with family life. Conveyancing has also taken a hit with the demise of the property market. I don't know anything about corporate or big private client work, but my understanding is that the big firms who undertake these demand long hours. I also know that a lot of the firms round these parts have closed when the elder partners have retired.

If I were advising, I would join the chorus telling you not to do it! The course itself is not especially interesting from a purely intellectual perspective, either. What about a related type of study, such as criminology? Thre are probably lots of more intersting courses out there.

Sorry to be dismal. Of course, if you had good family support/plenty other money to pay for childcare, etc, a lot of the above would not apply anyway.

Good luck with this, whatever you decide

O, and there are/were some very "difficult" partners, that's true. Could tell you stories to make your hair curl, but enough, I think

Thanks for the reply! Appreciated.

The areas I think I might like to pursue are Construction, as my professional experience so far would support this, or Law of the Sea as I'm interested in working in Shipping. Hence, staying on for a Masters in International Law. Criminal law seems extremely competitive, and although the drama might be interesting I think I'm probably not suited to it.

Can I ask how hard you found it to get a training contract? Are they very tough to come by?

I am ambitious and really want a career I can get my teeth into. DH is at home/flexible in his work and we are financially stable though not well off so childcare isn't a principle concern, though seeing my children is.

My traineeship was many years ago, so i was OK. My understanding is that they are quite hard to come by now. Although I do think that your areas sound interesting, and getting a good degree in a specialised area should mean that you have a good chance of getting traineeship. I worked for my training firm in university holidays before starting too.

Have you contacted firms/counsel practising in the areas you are interested in?

You sound like you have thought it through and are likely to do well at university- why not just do it! If you can't get a traineeship at the end of it you will be able to secure work on a different path. Everyone told me women couldn't be criminal lawyers when I started, and I ignored that

Your family situation sounds good too: flexibility with DH makes it so much easier.

Do you think I should contact them in advance of any law experience at all?

I would be nervous about sounding naive about the areas I'm interested in at this stage but perhaps I should get over that (or just do some more research!).

A big worry is that my age will limit my options for employment. The firms I'd love to get training with emphasise nights out/socialising on their websites and obviously, it's all geared for 23yos. At my age now, I'm wise enough to know how much I don't know but I worry that a lot of employers might think I wouldn't 'know my place' as well as someone younger.

Yes, I think you should contact them and maybe ask if you could do " work experience" to get a feel for it.

Tbh, I think being that being your age might be a positive. Firms are usually grateful for a trainee who is mature enough to work autonomously and know when yo seek help. Would also be an advantage with clients, I reckon- air of experience and all that

Scotland's legal circle is quite small, and can hinge a lot on who you know, so never too early to start making contacts.

Plus seeing what a job is really like can give you the spur to work towards it. I went to see an advocate I knew at work in the High Court whilst still at school, and knew that crime was the life for me!

People will be glad to help, I reckon- go for it

I work in one of the larger Scottish firms. If you really want to get in to areas like construction/shipping you would have to join a larger commercial firm - you won't find much shipping law being done in High St firms. I don't think your age is against you - we often have older trainees and some of them do very well. I would say though that the hours aren't especially family friendly - I regularly work 8.45 to at least 7pm and trainees are expected to stay later if required.

Thanks. It's great to hear that my age won't immediately count against me.

Piebald, what's the competition like for traineeships at your firm - is it 30,000 for 2 places or are chances a bit better than that?

I think there's only six firms in Edinburgh that do Shipping (three of whom I've been a client of!) and a couple more that do Construction, but yes, that's a small pool and I'm very conscious of that. DH and I have discussed the 'no traineeship' crisis and I guess I could either continue with more academic study or work as a paralegal.

My children will be 6 and 8 by the time I've finished my Diploma, or older if I do the LLM, so whilst I'll want to get home to them, it won't feel like it would have done when they were babies or toddlers.

Hoolet, there is competition for traineeship places but someone has to get them so no reason you shouldn't. If you do decide to study law make sure you apply for vacation schemes - this will really increase your chances as a large number of our trainees have also done vac scheme (you even get paid!)

Thanks. The 'someone's got to get them' line of thought is keeping me focused, and I'll do my best to get vacation work. Being paid would be nice.

I'm hoping to go back to Uni of Edinburgh where I got my first degree and people have said that the Careers Service there is well placed to help with finding vacation work/contacts.