anyone know anything about PhDs and being an academic?

[hatstand]

just wondered if anyone knew how feasible it is to lecture/go into academia without one? I would quite like to do one - but not as a student iyswim. I'd like to be paid to do it! or to kind of by-pass that stage. I have an MPhil - which took two years and includes a substantial research element techincally - though not actucally tbh - equivalent to a year of a PhD. having said that it was 10 years ago and not in teh area I am now interested in, but I guess it kind of establishes some research credentials. I am currently taking a masters in teh area I am interested in - and have worked in that area for 6 odd years, but not at all sure I want to go back to my job. am enjoying studying too much.

Can you say what the area you're interested in working in is, hatstand? In my area (arts & humanities), it's quite usual for people to get their first job before finishing a PhD, but not before starting one. I've been involved in various appointment committees recently, and I'm afraid that I would consider you underqualified at the moment. BUT it may well be very different in different subject areas. However, research and publication is now such a key element of the job, that people are very reluctant to take on a new lecturer without a publication record behind her/him (even if s/he hasn't finished the PhD yet). OTOH, your 6 years' experience in the area will count for something. What might work (depending on how much money you need to earn, I gues) would be to explore Postgraduate Teaching Fellowships (or suchlike ... they have different names in different institutions). For these, you might have to do, say, 6 hours' teaching per week in return for your fees being paid and a small grant (normally the equivalent of whatever the relevant research council grant would be). These are hard work (because you don't get allowed any extra time to do the PhD to compensate for the time you'll spend teaching, preparing, marking, etc.), but in your circs might be a good compromise. My experience suggests that they are also a good way into a permanent job, because they do give you a lot of teaching experience as well as the chance to pursue your research. If you want to talk about this some more, feel free to CAT me.
Good luck, anyway. I moan about my job sometimes, but I couldn't imagine doing anything else... I do love it really!

PS I am Ellbell, under a different name!

I hope I don't offend anyone else by saying this... I think you would have a good chance of getting a lecturing job in an ex-poly type of Uni, but not in a pre-1992 type Uni -- unless you're research is extremely relevant and highly regarded.

I know a Professor who is also head of an important/leading/prominent research group in a top (and very large) dept. in a pre-1992 Uni, who "only" has a Master's degree, but someone starting out today would have a lot of trouble going so far without a PhD.

That's true, Freakyzebra, it was different in the 'olden days' and many people who are now top academics and researchers never finished their PhDs. But you wouldn't get away with it nowadays.

thanks - Queensaddo - the thing that I can't bear is the thought of how blummin long a phd takes! It might sound odd but I do see pay as a reflection of your "worth" and teh idea of not being paid for that long fills me with horror. Not financially tbh as we can do ok on what dh earns, more for my own slef-respect. Freakyzebra - I had thought that too. I live right next door to an ex-poly and recently saw who lectures in my area and was a bit gobsmacked. He also works in my area and there;s no doubt I could do his lectures, and would have more credibility as a professional, iyswim. Do people succesfully make a crossover though? One of current lecturers for my Masters works in the field and lectures almost as a sideline. (there are more like that - don;t want to get too specific on-line but it's humanities-based with a practical field-like applicatino) That might suit me? have just noticed he doesn't have a phd either.

talking of different in the old days. On one of our induction days one of our professors told us - with no hint of embarrassment - that he got a 2:2!

yeah my dad is a hard sciences prof with an honorary DSc (only thing harder to get than a doctorate), never did his PhD, too busy doing applied research for the evil govts of the world etc etc etc. Its so not like that now, even in his pyhsicist/electrical comms field.

In my field (infectious disease control) you frankly can't get a foot in the door as a data analyst without an MSc, and a doctorate/MD of one sort or another to be allowed to head stuff up. That's both operational and academic that I've seen.

Like Queen Saddo said, in our field you can get something in betweeny if your PhD is very underway, or if like me they are desperate for someone willing to put shoulder to an unpopular wheel in hard times. In your case that would mean teaching the undergrads +++ I suspect, and doing the govt related paper chasing exercises (argh). I see a lot of academics having the soul drained out of them by too much of that, so be careful there is enough time to study if you go that route.

But I don't think I'll get back to where I was after this kiddies career break without getting a DPH/PhD underway. I think it's to do with how many more people get BSc's etc now. It has raised the entry points all along the field.

ramble over, good luck, xx

Hi -

I'm a lecturer in an 'old' university and I'm afraid it is not only a case of having a PhD but you also increasingly need a publication record these days as well to get a permanent position. However, it is possible to get temporary contracts more easily, but most jobs are quite competitive. I'm not really sure that the remark someone made about post-1992 universities holds true anymore either, everyone is terribly worried about the RAE and that drives most recruitment.

But you can usually get funding for your PhD depending what field it is in and how good your proposal is, or you can look for a PHD position that is funded, for example, if people are doing a large scale project, they often include funding for a phD student as part of this - something like that would be paid. You certainly don't have to self-fund your PhD, there are other options.
The thing to do would be to ask your Masters supervisors what funding opportunities are available in the field you are interested in, and take it from there. A postgraduate teaching fellowship is a good idea, as someone suggested, if you are in ateaching department as this can provide good experience for a later position. But if you can get a straight PhD research studentship that is much better, because it allows you to focus on your research and only pick up the teaching if you want to. Three years might seem a long time, but most people don't complete in that, particularly if they have other commitments, so you have to weigh things up.

All the best,
Rose

From an "old" Uni and would agree with Rose. You used to be able to get lectureships in marketing without a PhD but they relied on your professional record to compensate. Even those posts have dried up now.

You may be able to get hourly paid work but it's scarce and not very wellpaid. Also most departments like to give it to their PhD students (it counts as part of their training).

I'm a research associate in social research (no teaching responsibilities) at a new university. I don't have a PhD and can progress to the highest possible career grade here without one (research fellow).

People I know who have PhDs found it a) bloody hard work and b) not guaranteed to lead onto a job of any kind, never mind a good one. You tend to (over)specialise in a narrow area, which can make it difficult to get an appropriate job. My partner has a PhD and is working in industry (with lower pay than me and less job satisfaction).

But - I would love to be able to call myself Doctor Mammybadgirl

ok - follow up question. It seems that a Phd is pretty much standard for an academic career - hope I'm not going to cause offence here - does that have a solid rational grounding? Does it truly equip you for the job ahead or is there an element of making people do it the hard way?

A PhD...sigh...
My ultimate fantasy.
Will break myself in very gently with a f/t MSc next year (jb related).
Can't bloody wait to sit down and have someone directing me for a change.

and how old is too old to do a career change - that, it would seem, involves a 3 year (minimum) apprenticeship.....??? shit, might as well get myself qualified as a lawyer. (am doing an LLM)

Does it (a PhD) truly equip you for the job ahead or is there an element of making people do it the hard way?

LOL at this question. I think you have to want to do a PhD to spend three years on it, rather than it being a means to a job in a university. Having a PhD does not guarantee you a job in a university either - there are lots of good people on temporary contracts, because that's just the way things are at the moment.

But I think a PhD does equip you for the job nowadays because, as I said before, so much of the job is research-oriented, getting funding, carrying out projects and publishing. The whole PhD experience is about very much more than just doing a piece of work and writing it up, you are expected to do postgrad conferences, and publish from your thesis if you want a good job. Of course it is possible to take the research associate route, and that equips you just as well, but certainly, in my experience, you would be expected to be studying for a PhD as well.

As to whether a PhD equips you for teaching, that is harder to answer, because you would also be expected to do some kind of new lecturers course. But as courses are expected to be up to date, then you have to be abreast with developments in the field, as well as the literature. I'm too tired on a Friday afternoon to write the whole transferable skills piece that your question demands, but yes, in general, I think a PhD (properly supervised within a thriving research community) gives you a good grounding for academic life.

As to the second question, I don't think there is an upper age limit for a career change, though some funding bodies do impose one for PhD funding!

LOL at the length of my answer, sorry. I'm going back to work now....

thanks Rose. Not sure what someone as emminent and serious as a university lecturer is doing on mn but am glad that you are....(but would you tell your colleagues....)

Depends-this University requires all new lecturers (i.e. fresh from PhD/PostDoc) to do a PGCHE so that their teaching is (hopefully) adequate. But that's just one aspect of the job, at most Unis they like to tell you that the research aspect is key (and it plays a big part in whether you get promoted)so as for why the PhD requirement, it kind of proves that you've got the ability to stay the course. In most areas you won't get to do any research without funding and I'm not aware of any Reearch Councils that will consider applications from people without PhDs.

As for the career change taht's up to you. I know of people that have moved into academia later on, in science-related subjects it's quite common to switch between academia and industry.

I think the reason I'm struggling a bit is that in my particular field there is really a continium from practioners (of which I am one, but on the policy side, we're generally thought to be the thinkers) through think tanks, onto hardened academia. So it's hard to think of it as a real career change requiring a "return to go". oh gawd I feel in a pickle. No decisions required imminently. I just know that I'm enjoying the opportunity to focus properly on the issues I get to think about at work, without distraction.

Hatstand, is there anyone in RL you can talk to about this...? Maybe one of your Masters tutors? If you are going to do a PhD, you'll need a research topic and a supervisor, and it's never too early to start planning this. But even if you're only vaguely thinking about it, talking to someone within the subject area, who knows exactly what the job situation is like, what shortlisting panels are normally looking for (it sounds now as if your practical experience would be taken a lot more seriously in your subject than it would in a totally 'non-practical' subject like my own), whether a PG teaching fellowship is an option, whether your MPhil would be taken seriously, and so on and so forth. Good luck, anyway....

hatstand I have a PhD (gained 8 years ago) and am currently doing an MSc (part time) as I am changing areas. Either from the 2nd year of the masters- or if not after finishing, I am hoping to get funded for some sort of research (our local uni is a well respected ex-poly- one of the one's that has done well out of the changeover- and my first degree/PhD are from top 5 universities). My supervisor thinks this should be entirely possible. Failing that I should be able to get some lecturing (I could get some from this year if I had the time- I don't).

I think it depends how high powered etc you want to be. I can't be -( disabled child, no holiday care, no after school care) but it loks as if it should be possible for me to get some sort of wage- even if it's a bit here and there. I also work from home so hopefully will juggle the 2 and make a living wage somehow. Of course experience then hopefully leads onto more work etc.

hatstand i sympathise. dh is at the beginning of a phd (in research stage) and is just applying for funding. haven't read the hread, so sure someone's suggested it, but what about the research councils?
can I do a little hijack? (sorry hatstand)
did 1st degree in 2 related fields (engl/german), did phd in german, finished 2 years ago. soon after that started a lecturing job (abroad, teaching only) in english. phd has a good chance of being published if reworked a bit (hard with 5mo ds!) and i do the odd review, but have completely got out of research. how hard would it be to get back in?

Foundintranslation (love the name!)... Would this be with a view to working in a German department over here? I definitely don't think you've burnt your bridges after only two years 'away'... and you could argue that you've been gaining teaching experience (even if a bit 'back to front'). If your book is publishable, I'd say start approaching publishers (Legenda or one of the other series run by the MHRA are good for Mod Langs; or ask your PhD supervisor for advice if you're still in touch with her/him) and once you've secured a contract you'd be in a really strong position to start looking for jobs... Go for it!

ellbell - you're right - I do need to talk to someone in rl. I have a suspicion that I would be able to shift my career a bit, rather than totally change - possibly combining a bit of teaching with my old job, or maybe ditching the old job and going freelance (which would basically mean doing the interesting bits) combined with teaching. There are certainly a few possibilities that might enable me to do something more academic without, perhaps, making a total switch. And, in any case, I suspect I could get a bit frustrated with pure academia (I know I got very lonely doing my MPhil). The responses on this thread are really interesting and have given me lots to think about. I think i might talk to someone a bit anonymous in the university careers dept, before making a twat of myself with someone who actually knows the area, iykwim.

thanks ellbell
prob is the phd is in German ... examiners reckoned it would be very publishable in Germany.

Doesn't matter, as far as I know, FiT. It would still count just the same for the RAE if it was published in Germany (as long as it's with a serious academic publisher, referreed, etc.). Loads of stuff in my subject area is published abroad (I'm in mod langs too).

Hatstand... good idea, but make sure that it's someone who does know about the field you're interested in. (I have very bad memories of going to my careers service, all bright-eyed and bushy-tailed, saying that I wanted advice on doing a PhD and going into academia, and being looked at as if I'd just landed from the planet Zog, patted on the head, and advised to become a bilingual secretary. (No offence to bilingual secretaries... good job, but not what I wanted to do!) Mind you, things have probably changed... that was over 15 years ago (aaaargh... I'm ancient!).

Good luck anyway.

thanks Rose. Not sure what someone as emminent and serious as a university lecturer is doing on mn but am glad that you are....(but would you tell your colleagues....)

Serious - guilty as charged, but still working on the eminent .
I'm on here because I'm also a mother - as to whether I would tell my colleagues, it depends on the colleague really.
Good luck whatever you decide.