Men and washing machines

[motherinferior]

Just out of interest, can anyone tell me of a sole heterosexual male who can do the washing properly - the full thing, you know, sorting different colours/temperatures rather than bunging everything in at 60 degrees; putting in suitable loads (and taking the prevous load away and putting the clothes in the right places rather than leaving everything on the racks or lines, or at the very best piled up chaotically on the bed); taking it out and hanging it up; and finally putting this lot away too?

And if so, can I have him stuffed and put in a museum?????????

dadslib, I like to think one day we won't have blue and pink roles, we'll just be people and partnerships.

But 40 years is a very short time to achieve equality. Women are still struggling under glass ceilings we need to fight. If men need a new role, they need to find it themselves (hell, we're mothers, we know if you tell 'em one thing they'll just go and do the reverse to spite us). If that means a boxer-burning campaign in a few decades, you have my support.

If a feminist rant's worth saying, it's worth saying twice
(sorry)

Ooh inflammatory post dadslib! Can't quite buy your argument that women becoming (or being) capable of carrying out what were traditionally male jobs (your so called blue jobs) has "lead to alot of dis-enfranchised, disenchanted, disfunctional men. You say: 'Lager Louts', football hooligans, the work shy, wife beaters, kiddy porn perverts, child moletsers, armed criminals, etc..., all on the increase, may all be partly symptomatic of this." Come on! So poor men are feeling sorry and sad that some women are capable of mowing a lawn or changing a fuse? So they turn into child molesters (because they feel useless and inadequate) and it's WOMEN'S FAULT?! Please.

You also say "So don't you all think its about time that women took more responsibility for their liberation and helped men to find a 'New' role?" Err, No I don't. Why is it up to women to define a new role for men as a result of our supposed liberation? Hmmm? We can tell men what we want, sure but in many, many cases all women want to be treated more or less equally. That's not hard to grasp is it?

You then go on to say "After all, with equality comes responsibility". I'd just like to point out that women DON'T have equality, not at all. The pay gap is still there to name just one, huge example, despite sex discrimination legislation.

And you say "More women MP's is a good thing, but I don't see any of them championing mens issues, yet men, by the very laws those MP's create, have to consider women more equally and responsibly". Actually, the sex discrimination act applies to men as well but men just don't face as much discrimination so don't need to use it as much! MPs don't need to champion men's issues as much because men aren't the ones facing inequality at work, in childcare and at home if this thread's anything to go by!

you say the whole cycle will repeat itself. How? Do you it's likely that men will suddenly start being paid less for doing the same job as a woman? I doubt it.

Sorry, I ranted too. Hysterical woman, see

dadslib LOL
I wish my dh burnt his boxers, then I would not have to wash them
Seriously though I know where you are coming from, the fact of the matter is most women tackle the diy jobs because they want to have a go and also that some men take ages to actually either do it or find the time.Women were decorating their homes well before the burning of the bra era.So it is not a new thing.
We are women and as you well know we cannot wait, it has to be done there and then.(Most of us anyway)
Also lets not forget the "nesting" instinct in women. We like our homes well decorated and change furniture around as it seems wanting to us for this nesting need, esp when pg.This is one very strong urge.
Dinosaur if I could drink my wages I would be one happy woman.LOL

ps I thought that all those wife-beaters, child molesters etc existed well before the burning of the bra era.

Message withdrawn

dadslib, I agree with you about those adverts on the telly. They would never get away with making the women look stupid like that.

But it is only recently this has happened. Throughout history the man has been the advantaged one in most ways. It's a period of backlash, and eventually it will end and people will exist without this kind of discrimination. We can always hope, anyway.

Unfortunately there will always be people who are prejudiced about something or another, and they spoil it for everyone else.

In the meantime, stick up for what you believe in with dignity, humour and good grace, and I am sure you will be making a valid contribution to the positive changes you'd like to see. Being a dad on mumsnet, for example, I think is a really positive thing.

Thank you WWW - you said it beautifully and I agree with you!

Message withdrawn

Ooh, I don't know Dadslib. Can we see them as choices rather than problems?

I love going to work and would be desperate if I had to stay home, but in spite of that I made the choice to start my family early. Jobs in our house are done by the person who likes them most (hates them least?) or who has available time. I remember older people expressing horror at my drinking pints 10+ years ago, whereas now people rarely question a choice in drink. And I'm very glad men have a say in running our home.

I know I'm priveleged to be in a position to make choices, but I know that my priveleged position is partly down to what you are calling feminism.

By the way, have you read Jenni Murray's book "That's my boy!"? It's fab and addresses the point that you're making very positively.

OK, let's get a couple of things straight:

• at no point in history have women with chilren not had to go outside the home to work. That was a middle or upper class habit, not a general one.
• the fact both you and your wife work when you'd rather have it another way is down to the choices you make in the society you live in. Feminism may have given your wife that choice but it has not made her make it.

I don't think you have any idea what equality means to women. But that's not really surprising - unless you've had a school teacher ignore your maths questions because you're a girl, had someone tell you you can't pursue a certain career because you're a women, had a bank manager talk to your husband instead of you at a joint meeting (all of which have happened to me and I'll be surprised if I'm alone), you really can have no clear idea what we mean by a glass ceiling.

I know it's confusing for a generation or two of men who are given a culture of the traditional man-as-breadwinner role models from their parents but need to conform to a different set of expectations from their peers. But really, that's small beer compared to generations of women who had no say in the way they led their lives.

OK, let's get a couple of things straight:

• at no point in history have women with chilren not had to go outside the home to work. That was a middle or upper class habit, not a general one.
• the fact both you and your wife work when you'd rather have it another way is down to the choices you make in the society you live in. Feminism may have given your wife that choice but it has not made her make it.

I don't think you have any idea what equality means to women. But that's not really surprising - unless you've had a school teacher ignore your maths questions because you're a girl, had someone tell you you can't pursue a certain career because you're a women, had a bank manager talk to your husband instead of you at a joint meeting (all of which have happened to me and I'll be surprised if I'm alone), you really can have no clear idea what we mean by a glass ceiling.

I know it's confusing for a generation or two of men who are given a culture of the traditional man-as-breadwinner role models from their parents but need to conform to a different set of expectations from their peers. But really, that's small beer compared to generations of women who had no say in the way they led their lives.

oh, for goodness sake, is there an echo in here?

AS the person who started this thread - and a lifelong feminist - can I just say that I didn't, in fact, say 'all men are useless'. What I said was that the man I live with, like a lot of other men that I know, doesn't always do all the basic, domestic housework that women are expected to do, and are conditioned into doing, and I see somewhat to my dismay are still doing to a far greater extent than me. Which demonstrates that feminism hasn't actually permeated the way we live - the private, domestic, crucially important sphere - as much as many people like to claim.

I could just as well have ranted about the fact that my small daughter - aged two and a half, dammit - is constantly asked 'do you help mummy with the baby'. I always snarl back NO, SHE'S ONLY LITTLE HERSELF. I am quite sure a boy wouldn't get asked that, and it really pisses me off that girls are expected to 'take care' of babies when they're hardly more than babies themselves.

OK, another rant over

What can I say? I agree with Motherinferior, and I really agree with Bloss (which is getting spooky!). I love my men (dh and ds) more than I can say. I do not think the positions have reversed and women are somehow dominating men. Just don't see it. In the 50s, life would have been hell for me. Women were just chattels in so many ways. A teacher could be fired for the simple 'crime' of being married. Choices did not exist. In the 50s, owning a car was pretty rare, there was no TV, no central heating, no takeaways, food was cooked from scratch, there were no expensive toys, clothes were repaired rather than replaced. There was no recreational shopping etc etc etc. I think if you were prepared to live a 50s life you could probably afford it on one salary even today, but we're not.

Dadslib: Aaah, poor thing, you now need the tiny minority of women in Parliament to help men on men's issues? I really think that since our male dominated gvt has failed to look after parenting issues (maternity leave etc) it is part and parcel of the same thinking that they have shown such contempt for father's rights. I DO think men are discriminated against, I would allow paid time off for ante-natal visits, children's vaccinations, carers days and paid paternity leave etc etc...but if I was an MP I suspect I'd be out voted by male members.
It's a signal that men are still 'the majority' power-wise that allows them to be the butt of humour in ads etc, it is only humour aginst minorities that is considered tasteless. (But perhaps the rising voice against male-baiting is a sign of change).
Are we hearing from your wife on this? Interesting that you are so carefully paternalistically telling us about the disadvantages feminism has brought her....(I may well be out of order here!)
As for this new theory that feminism has led to house price rises etc...who has, on the whole, been in charge of buying and selling houses, either as owners of property , estate agents, property developers etc? You can't watch men capitalising on the main chance and then blame women!
And finally,(grrrrllls, who describe your inputs thus) is this a 'rant' because it comes from a woman? Or a 'point of view'?

P.S "How many feminists does it take to change a lightbulb?"
"Just one. And it's not a joke"

But in answer to Motherinferior's question: no you b**y well can't stuff and mount my DP!

Message withdrawn

Dadslib - I was ready to jump in a defend you until I saw the bit about BEER!

I'm sorry but you sound like a patronising . To assume that women go out and drink just to try to keep up with men!! How arrogant???? I suppose we only try to lose weight to be more pleasing for men to look at.

I am also a professional engineer and I work with men like you every day. Jeeeeeeeesus, do you really think that or are you just trying to stir up some bra-burning action ?

Another point... I am the main breadwinner and, like your situation, it would make more sense for DP to stay home than me. And I wish he would. I'm sick og having to clean clothes, cook dinner etc..... I wish I could come home from work and see it all done.... and go in a huff if it isn't.

Anyone got a lighter? My bra is off and ready for alighting

How many Male Chauvenist does it take to change a light bulb?

None. The b1tch can cook in the dark!

MT2 LOL

lol m2t