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Utilitarian bioethics..

21 replies

CreepyJess · 16/10/2005 21:00

Anyone know anything about this? I think even the concept is shocking.. but in fact many people take this very seriously!

CJ x

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NotQuiteCockney · 16/10/2005 21:07

Hmm, I'm not used to the term, but I looked it up, and it doesn't seem that shocking to me. It's a logical way to make difficult choices, surely? (It suffers from the usual problem of utilitarianism: how to measure "happiness")

CreepyJess · 16/10/2005 21:17

NQC I should have said about the part that was shocking.. I didn't even know what it was either so I googled it. It seems to involve the 'wiping out' of people that are not useful to society.. ie the old, sick, disabled.. and, if I am not wrong, the possibilty of killing severely disabled infants at birth! I didn't read much more.. that made me feel quite sick.. so thought I would post it on here to see what the MN boffs (they are so many! ) had to say!

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GeraldGiraffe · 16/10/2005 21:19

hmmm. seems an extreme form of 'the greatest good for the greatest number'.

J.S. Mill would be turning in his grave I fear!

NotQuiteCockney · 16/10/2005 21:22

Hmm, I'm not sure it necessarily involves those things. It's just about a way of thinking about providing medical care. Is it worth spending a million pounds to save one old person who won't be very healthy or happy, or should we spend the same money to save 10 younger people? It's not a nice thought, having to make that choice, but functionally, the NHS has to make these sorts of choices.

I guess, taken to extremes, yes, this could be used to argue for infanticide, but lots of ideas can be taken to extremes and made quite harmful.

CreepyJess · 16/10/2005 21:29

Perhaps I can't consider the more sensible points rationally because I am blinded by the fact that I have a severely disabled child who honestly is the light of my life. He costs the country lots of money but is totally worth italthough only to his family I guess! This is why it is so scary... guess it all comes down to this 'measuring happiness' and how to define happiness.

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NotQuiteCockney · 16/10/2005 21:36

Right. But if you think about it, lots of people (including people like me, who have, at present, no severely disabled relatives) would be very very unhappy to live in a society that checked newborns to decide whether or not they met the criteria to be kept alive!

So even if some utilitarian maths says that would be the right thing to do, they're clearly leaving out some of the relevant data.

eidsvold · 17/10/2005 00:27

Cj there is a professor who argues strongly for antenatal testing and termination of pregnancies of babes with special needs - his reasoning - cheaper to test and terminate than provide medical care for someone with health needs eg a person with cystic fibrosis.....

monkeytrousers · 17/10/2005 10:19

Oh, this is a can of worms. I'm not sure but this might be better seen as a discussion of ethics that go all the way in each direction, to eugenics on one side to reciprocal altruism on the other - or zero-sum, non zero-sum perspectives.

I know of Brian Singer from 'animal liberation' and he seems a profoundly moral individual.

It's tricky, because if ?moral? people don't do this kind of thinking, immoral people might (like the Nazi's with Social Darwinism and then pursue it to horrible 'logical' ends) Scientists will often try to look at things without a moral perspective as it distorts the logic. This isn?t because they are immoral themselves, quite the opposite. They attempt to look at a ?fact? i.e. humans kill other humans. They try to view it through an amoral prism to then try to understand why it happens. This might then lead to a situation where you can stop it happening. (Echo?s of social conditioning ? it?s all a balancing act) This is the basis of Hume?s Naturalistic Fallacy. If hypothetical studies are carried out which examine all of the consequences then radical groups supporting eugenics say can then be refuted, as the research has been done. The debate isn't in itself immoral; it would be immoral not to have it.

As we know that sentient animals suffer, we realise it is immoral to kill them. But the argument on infants and the elderly (who have a different level of sentience) is only logically persuasive on the grounds that the sentient people around them wouldn't suffer if they were removed from the equation. It would cause a huge amount of suffering and so isn?t' a viable route. But you only get to this route by asking the horrible questions.

I don't know very much about this by the way, so I might be talking out of my arse. DP does though, I'll ask him about it when he gets in.

monkeytrousers · 17/10/2005 10:25

But it's better to ask the questions than let someone test them out.

Too late for most sentient animals other than humans unfortunatley.

monkeytrousers · 17/10/2005 11:07

Hume's fallacy is better explained as looking at the way something 'is' rather than it 'ought' to be. Apply morals afterwards.

CreepyJess · 17/10/2005 13:36

Eidsvold, Christ Almightly I have a child with cystic fibrosis as well as a severely disabled one!! I think I had better stop ruminating about the whole thing.. there is no way I can be rational!! (And yes CF costs a fortune!!!!)

(Was not cursing at you btw!)

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Ellbell · 17/10/2005 14:13

"He costs the country lots of money but is totally worth it, although only to his family I guess!"

Not at all, CJ. I am lucky enough to have met your ds, and can honestly say that he brightens the life of everyone who knows him, and is living proof of the fact that 'worth' can't be measured in £££s.

(Haven't got time to look this up now, but it sounds like eugenics under another name.)

Ellbell · 17/10/2005 14:13

"He costs the country lots of money but is totally worth it, although only to his family I guess!"

Not at all, CJ. I am lucky enough to have met your ds, and can honestly say that he brightens the life of everyone who knows him, and is living proof of the fact that 'worth' can't be measured in £££s.

(Haven't got time to look this up now, but it sounds like eugenics under another name.)

CreepyJess · 17/10/2005 14:45

Bless you Ellbell

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monkeytrousers · 17/10/2005 16:28

You're right, morally a life can't be measured in currency, but very often it is.

monkeytrousers · 17/10/2005 16:32

Or I should say it ought not to be..but it very often is.

monkeytrousers · 18/10/2005 19:16

DP said he doesn't know enough to comment. So I definitely don't either!

moondog · 18/10/2005 19:19

Surely a sure sign of a civilised and evolved society that we are able to protect and empower its most vulnerable citizens??

monkeytrousers · 18/10/2005 19:20

Aye (I'm not getting confused now)

CreepyJess · 18/10/2005 23:00

Moondog hope so . Because as if I don't have enough stuff to worry about this thing is actually bothering me at the back of my mind. How can people with cystic fibrosis be deemed useless to society because of the cost of their treatment? They can and do lead very productive lives.. some of them are doctors, teachers etc..

And my DS2.. he may never be able to do anything like that.. but as far as 'measuring happiness' goes, he has brought us a truly imeasurably amount of happiness.. and seems to make everyone happy around him.. What would the would-be practioners of utilitarian bioethics make of that then???!

It only really 'works' (if you can call it that) if you consider human beings as pieces of meat without the capacity to love and relate to each other. I have read more about it and the whole philosphy offends me in every way... it is complete horror disguised as 'common sense'..

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Ellbell · 19/10/2005 11:19

That's why I thought it was but a small step to eugenics, CJ. Because if you can justify doing away with people with CF, then what's to stop you justifying the 'elimination' of other groups which you present as a 'menace to society'... say, for example, Jews or gypsies. Hitler did this very successfully (... and remember that the Nazis started with mentally and physically handicapped people and tried out on them the techniques they'd later use in Auschwitz and elsewhere to wipe out 6 million Jews and others).

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