responsibility to society

[tallulah]

Something came up in a recent thread about the need for a societal/global responsibility for all children, not just our own. 2 things this week have got me thinking about that. DH drove past a small child who was standing by a dead cat. He was about to stop to see if there was anything he could do, in case the cat belonged to the child, then thought better of it. He was worried someone might think he was up to no good approaching a strange child.

Event 2. PIL had a party at the weekend, of the quiet, sitting in the garden variety, with a large number of mainly elderly guests. 3 children from a few doors down came to have a nose over the fence. They started throwing stones & bricks at my DS. I told them- politely- to go away & told DS to go back into the main bit of the garden so as not to wind them up.

A bit later they came back with a large water pistol & aimed it at a 90 year old lady, over the fence. Someone else shouted at them & they went away. A bit later they tried throwing bricks at FILs garage windows. FIL threatened to have a word with their dad, but said to us there was no point as he'd do nothing.

These children were about 8 years old- no older (& not little enough not to realise). When I previously posted about bad behaviour in other people's children, a lot of you felt it was no big deal. But what makes a young child think it's OK to attack elderly people? What sort of a society are we making? (& this is a pleasant rural village, not a deprived inner city).

When I was that age I can remember rival gangs of kids creeping up on eachother, but I'm sure we wouldn't have tried to disrupt a group of adults. If we had, you can be sure that the adults would have had a go, then told our fathers who would have had an even worse go- at us!

Our parents brought us up to fit in with the way things were done, and not to cause embarrassment to them (the worst sin we could commit). A lot of todays parents seem to think the only important thing is that their child is happy, & sod everyone else.

I'm sure everyone will disagree with me but is this reasonable behaviour from primary age children? Did you act like this?

I think you are right Tallulah, this is not reasonable behaviour. I think in both cases, something should have been done and I get annoyed when people just 'walk on by' apathetically.
Good on you.

My cousin came round today to take me for some driving practice, and he had left his sunroof open outside my house. DH was left with my kids, while we went out. When we came back DH was chasing 3 12-13 year old away from DC car. They had tried to get into the car via the sunroof. Luckily I had told DC had he had left his window open before we left and he shut it, otherwise they would have certainly got in. This happened at 4pm in a neighbour that is known for curtain twitching. Little Sh**s

We never done anything like that to adults when we were kids Tallulah, we would of been afraid of the consequences if we got caught.
What I do think is sad is the likes of event one, you cannot approach a strange child and ask them if they are ok without the fear of a "paedo" accusation. It seems like the TRUST has gone in society, which when you look at the likes of Soham etc you cant blame society for being distrustful.
Also I blame social services. These do-gooders (most of them without children)think they have the right to stop us smacking our children. Lets face it we cannot smack our children without the fear of being arrested or our children taken into care.(I am not talking about beating up a child neither)I have seen this happen so many times, it is reality.
One time ds1 whos 9 had a fight in school and when told off he gave the headmaster cheek. He called me in to come and take him home. When the headmaster was telling me what ds was up to ds laughed at him.I do not like this sort of disrespect so I gave him a clip across the earhole.The headmaster turned away while I did this, then told me later that he seen nothing and if he did he would have to report me.What a joke.

Yet they fail to protect the most vulnerable children like little Victoria Climbie and others like her who suffer the most appalling little lives.
SS think that by throwing a couple of pound and a few leisure passes at the family will solve the problems, sorry but it only exasperates them.
I have never liked SS, I have said this many times on mumsnet.I could tell many stories about them.
IMO the whole system needs overhauling a rethink on strategy. It should protect the most vulnerable children without holding society to ransom by children who are manipulative and unruly.

Actually, I strongly oppose smacking. I was nearly in tears the other day on a bus because a woman kept slapping her toddler because he was hot and restless in his pushchair. I really found it very hard to bear and wished I could tell her it was against the law. I was upset for hours afterwards.
However, I also believe we do have a responsibility. Not so long ago, some children were playing 'chicken' in the road, so I stopped my car, go out and had a real go at them, explaining that they could die. I asked where they lived and rang the doorbell and (politely) told their mother that I was concerned that they were doing something dangerous and could cause themselves serious harm. I know I must seem a right old busybody but I can't bear the thought that my neglect would cause harm. I don't think children behave the way Tallulah describes because their parents only want them to be happy or because they aren't smacked enough. I think they are more likely to behave like that because their parents don't take enough interest in them and aren't good role models with their own actions. Personally, I would have gone round to their parents' house and also probably called the police after the rock-throwing incident, which is plain dangerous. I think we ignore what's around us too much. The other day I saw an elderly man lying on the pavement, so I stopped my car to call an ambulance - lots of people saw what I saw but ignored it.

I agree with aloha, the problem is not being allowed to smak, there are other ways to discipline children, but the point is many parents don't bother teaching children to respect other people. I suppose they'd be the first ones not to be very respectful.

I am sure chidlren learn a lot by imitation...I was nevr smacked (well only twice and on both occasions undeserved!!), but I'd have never behaved like those children, I'm also someone who never throws as much as a crumb onb pavements and I often bring a bag full of rubbish at home rather than throw it in the street or tube. It's just the way I've been brought up, I was actually afraid of my dad even is he never smacked us, because I just did not want to make him angry.

Yes I do think parents have a responsibility towards society to try and teach their chidlren to be responsible adults. If we don't do it we can't expect anyone else to.

I'm exactly the same about litter! Absolutely. And I hope my ds and sdd feel the same way as me. Not through discipline as such, but by example and feeling as if they live in a community where we all are responsible. I honestly don't know what you do about selfishness etc. I despair too sometimes. Being forced to listen to other people's loud music almost gives me an anyeurism I got so angry!

Tallulah - Why do you think people would disagree with you??????? Prsonally I think there's no way that's reasonable behaviour, throwing bricks etc!!! That's awful and if there parents were informed, which I think they should have been btw (don't know if you did or not so not getting at you at all), but I'd hope they were severley reprimanded by their parents.

Your comment :- A lot of todays parents seem to think the only important thing is that their child is happy, & sod everyone else, I'm not having a go or anbything, not at all, but what's that based on??? It's not true of any of the parents I know. Is this based on people you associate with, do you actually know people that feel that way??

Message withdrawn

i agree with you tallulah - but i am a hypocrite and a scaredy cat.

i could not have done what aloha did and rang the parents doorbell - i would have been petrified at the response. good on you aloha.

at the same time - i wonder who makes all the rules in society and what makes those rules right.

for example. there is a little girl on my street i would say at the oldest she is 4, she plays on the street with her siblings who dont always watchout for her. she has nothing on her feet most of the time and i have sometimes laughed at her mum chasing her down the street as she is running from a bath butt nekkid.

i dont believe this child is unhappy in any way - but i wish she would put some shoes on! i cant tell that to her mum i am too frightened of reprecussions - i dont want to call social services becuase i believe someone could report me for something or other i am sure like.. i smack or they dont wear socks or odd socks or gerneral untidyness. my kids sometimes look like they have never seen water.

does anyone see what i mean about the "rules" and what they are and who makes them.

is it illegal to clip a kid round the ear now? the headmaster undermined you authority.

next time they come looking over your fence why not offer them a butty or something. i work with a lot of kids and find that if you start of being nice to them ( even if they are in the wrong) they sometimes can be nice back. i agree that that kind of behaviour from an 8 year old is wrong.

all i have to do is look at my children and ever so quietly say " how dare you embaress me in this way" and they bow their heads and get all tearful.

also sometimes kids just want something to do - it doesnt make it right i know- when kids get to know you they are less likely in my experience to throw things at you or be rude - like anyone its easier if you dont know people to be unkind to them.

i usd to do my garden where i used to live and have a line of kids sitting on the fence -saying stuff like - your gardens rubbish, your car is crap etc... so i would agree " yeah your ded right, if you help me tidy up mi garden i will see what goodies i have in the fridge" that kind of things - sometimes they would say nah.. then wonder off - sometimes they would help and offer more help like cleaning out the car. then they get to know you and say hiya on the street and your less likely to be a target -s ee what i mean.

Tallulah - I too would have been shocked by this behaviour, it is totally unacceptable. As others have said, respect has to be learned and if parents don't show respect for other people, swear, drop litter, etc etc then children will follow this sort of behaviour.

Thomcat - regarding Tallulah's comment (sorry if I am butting in Tallulah) - I also see a lot of this sort of behaviour - ie: 'so long as my child's OK then sod everything else' - examples like not encouraging children to share, 'spoiling' or over-indulging children, not teaching good manners etc ...... I know its a petty example but my DS loves putting coins in charity boxes so if he sees one and asks I give him 2p or similar - the other day another child was watching us (whilst eating crips & sweets so the odd copper would hardly have been a problem) - and asked his mum for a coin, she actually swore & said 'I don't waste my money on that sort of C*'.

I think good manners and showing respect for other people is so important and its a shame that 'society' doesn't share the same value - but I suppose we are society. Is it a left over from the 'me-generation' attitude?

Is anyone planning to watch the programme tonight on educating children 1950s style - not saying that's right but should be interesting viewing.

Oh, I'm not brave. I just get this frightening adrenaline surge which affects me Incredible Hulk style - I'd do or say anything. I once chased a thief through Soho because he stole my purse out of my bag and cornered him in an alley, yelling 'Give me my purse back'. I did keep far enough away so he couldn't stab me but I yelled so hard and for so long, two bouncers leaped on him and I got my purse back,and he went to prison owing to having dozens of stolen credit cards on his person! I wouldn't recommend that sort of thing to anyone else but I simply couldn't help myself. One day I'll get murdered, I'm sure.

Lindy, I don't think that horrible woman did think 'so long as my child's happy than sod everyone else', otherwise she would have given him a coin to make him happy! I think she was just a horrible selfish cow who is probably as nasty to her kid as to everyone else, and a prime example of teaching by (bad) example.

....and another thing! I think wanting to make your child happy isn't usually linked to making him selfish or nasty or badly behaved. As Lindy's example showed, children very often have lovely instincts and by going along with them and encouraging them you can have a lovely, happy child who is a delight. I agree children can get spoiled, but it's usually, IMO, by material things or by bad examples. I do tell ds off pretty vigorously for, say, picking the cat up by her fur, but most of the time I do try to make him happy.

Aloha, what response did you get from the parents of the kids who were playing chicken?

Lisa, you sound like a paragon of patience. Well done.

Tallulah I also live in a deprived inner city. I live in what most of you call a "sink estate".We are an extremely close community and we as parents dont put up with that sort of behaviour out of our children.(local children)
Aloha I agree with lisalisa I dont like smacking my son but when you have a naughty boy who is cheeky and unruly in school, who is only allowed in school for half a day coz he is that disruptive and you have taken his away his playstation, grounded, sent to bed, told off,bribed with going in a local football team, treats are taken away for weeks on end (sometimes altogether)and yet he still wont tow the line in school and is disrespectful what am I as a parent supposed to do?Incidentally he does not act this way at home or playing outside only in school.
Custy- the headmaster didnt undermine my authority, he knows that we support the school as much as possible and knows all the punishments I give my son for being naughty in school.The poor man has told us that he would of been excluded by now only for the fact of dh and I showing so much support, he has been kept in school.

Agree with you Aloha - that was a bad analogy, getting my points mixed up!!

Here's a better one - DS met a friend the other day in a public park, friend was playing on a 'ride on' type toy (the only one) - my DS waited patiently and then asked if he could have a go - friend's mum said to her son 'now let X have a go', friend refused, ........ this went on for a while ..... in the end friend's mum shrugged her shoulders and said sorry to my DS - now if that had been the other way round I would have physically lifted my DS off the toy to let his friend have a turn, friend's mum obviously puts her DS's 'happiness' before learning to share etc.

wow! what a lot of posts! Lindy, thanks, that's exactly what I meant. Unfortunately I have met a lot of little brats since I had DD in 1986, & the one thing they all have in common is they are allowed to do exactly what they want & never corrected. It's all sorts of people too, from the very well off down to the sink estates- it's not confined to one sort of family

Thomcat I assumed people would disagree because the last time I posted about other people's children's bad behaviour I was shouted down! Pleasantly surprised to find I'm not in the minority this time.

aloha, I didn't mention smacking!

doormat, I think the rules have just evolved since society began.. you need something to ensure that people can live together. If we all did whatever we liked we'd be in a right mess, which is why I'm so bothered that we seem to be losing it with each generation.

Very pleased to see that mumsnetters are doing their bit!

janstar, well, they weren't very grateful! They seemed vaguely embarassed but the kids were mortified, which seemed as good a result as any! Doormat, wonder if your son is bored at school? If he behaves well at home and with friends, what's so different about school? You are obviously doing something right, and I wonder if the school is. And Lindy, I agree with you, your friend's behaviour was wrong. I encourage turn-taking with my ds, and our local South London park is like a 17th century ballroom in terms of politeness, all 'after you', 'No, pray you are too kind sir', 'well we were just going anyway' etc etc which is pretty heartening. Do you think your friend is just lazy rather than committed to her son's happiness? I rather hope that by teaching him turn taking I am laying the foundation for him to have friends in later life and thus be happier IYKWIM!

Tallulah yes we do seem to be losing it with each generation.And no we cant all run around and do what we like, we should treat people and their property with respect, also manners which cost nothing.
Aloha yes I do think he is bored in school, he completes all his work to a good standard. He is an intelligent 9 yo.I have mentioned this to the school and they agree with me.But I just cant solve this discipline problem he has in school and believe me I have tried everything.If anyone has any tips they would be gratefully received.
Lindy I think that attitude of not sharing is really terrible.I would of physically lifted off my child if he/she was like that.

Doormat, wasnt' there a thread recently where someone had the same problem as you regarding their intelligent son who was great at home but a nightmare at school because he was totally bored. Can't the school give him extra work to stretch him? I can't help think that the school aren't handling him well if he's not a bad boy elsewhere.

Aloha - love the sound of your park !!!!

interesting thread. Lindy - that kind of attitude/behaviour really winds me up. I would have done exactly as you suggested and taken DS off the ride to let the other child have a go.

I think a lot of these problems stem from parents who seem to not care in the slightest about things that don't directly affect them or their immediate family. Its definitely learned behaviour from parents - I had it drummed into me from an early age about politeness, consideration etc - but what message is being given to the child on the ride when the mother lets him get away with not letting anyone else have a turn, "your needs are the most important - be selfish". IFYKWIM

oh and I meant to say that the kind of behaviour you mention in your original post Tallulah really depresses me. We can big groups of kids down our street, weeing on cars, shouting, smashing things etc, once when I confronted them I just got a load of abusive language and comments like "we'll burn your f'ing house down".

I think the 'mob mentality' is more prevalent these days - when children/teenagers are in a big group they are much more likely to act in a way they wouldn't on their own.