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Ask Miranda a theological question!

221 replies

miranda2 · 31/07/2003 22:25

Since the other thread is getting long, I thought I'd start another in case anyone was still interested. (Am I mad??....) Won't be offended if no-one posts!!

OP posts:
Tissy · 05/08/2003 11:25

Thanks- maybe we should have another thread entitled, ask Tom a theological question

Tom · 05/08/2003 11:26

wicked...
for me,

God did it
Science describes it

Science explains how
Theology explores why

They are different fields, asking different questions, using different methods.

The big bang/evolution theories do not disprove God, they merely discredit simplistic creationist ideas that only get much of a hearing in the Bible belt.

For me, they describe an incredible process that God is responsible for. There is no incompatibility.

aloha · 05/08/2003 11:40

Tom, why do you believe in God? Where is your evidence for a creator? I suppose that's what really interests me about religion - the psychology of it. Do you feel you 'need' it? Where is the evidence that God loves us?

Tom · 05/08/2003 11:49

Tom, why do you believe in God?

  • Personal experience of God.

Where is your evidence for a creator?

  • All around me

I suppose that's what really interests me about religion - the psychology of it. Do you feel you 'need' it?

  • No - religion is a pain in the arse (apologies all cleric) - but I do need God - I think that is part of being human.

Where is the evidence that God loves us?
Toughie - but if you are serious about knowing the truth, ask God to show you, and take the search seriously. In my experience, God doesn't put up with bullshitters.

Jimjams · 05/08/2003 11:53

Aloha- sorry- everyone else this is off topic.

The head size theory has been round for a number of years. One thing I'm not sure has been looked at is the role fragile X has in all this. Frag X is one of the most common causes of autism. It can be detected via chromosome analysis- or more accurately thorugh a DNA test, but this isn't always done. So for example you could have a diagnosis of autism, but actualy have that autism becuase you have frag x. Frag X gives a large head size. Ds1 has a huge head (95th centile) so does his totally NT brother (98th centile) As do I (god knows what). the paediatrician said they have large head sizes inherited from me. I think the important thing about the head size is the growth of the head after birth- but I'm no convinced. Quite a number of autistic children I know have microcephaly, or borderline microcephaly.

The brain lighting up bits related to AS adults. I could quite believe that AS brains are wired up differently, Children with AS often seem to have an uncle somewhere who collected pictures of telegrah poles or a father who hated taking to anyone (total over-generalisation I know- but ime of talking to lots of people most parents of children with AS do talk about strong family histories)

Chidlren with autism often seem to have different problem. Immune problems, gut problems, heavy meatl problems. Becuase of their gut problems proteins which would usually stay in the gut reach the brain- where they could well affect its wiring- or neurone death I suppose (there should be a lot of neurone death during foetal development andthe early years).

I've always thought ds1 reacted to sorbitol. It's why he goes funny on Calpol and why I thought he was sneaking off to eat kiddies toothpaste. We changed the toothpaste. Last week he went strange- and I found out I'd made his bread with yeast which contained a sorbitol derivative (his nursery asked why he had gone all auti). A couple of days later I found out that sorbitol is actually banned from his diet and I shouldn't have given it to him (whoops). He is so ridiculously sensitive to these things- episodes like that remind me. His gut problems so clearly play a part in his autism and yet they get overlooked time and time again by many researchers.

So many different ways to the same condition and many different conditions being given the same name.

Sorry everyone- back to religion. Rhubarb- where or not homo sapiens and neanderthals were two seperate species, or actually interbred is not clear- there are many long boring academic arguments about it. I can't remember which is in favour at the moment.

Jimjams · 05/08/2003 11:58

aloha- yes I think it is a human "need". I do find the idea of it all being curtains when you die a bit frightening. Although that is probably what I believe if I'm honest. Sometimes I replace that with a new agey type spiritual belief as I feel more comfortable believing that. I guess we're all too vain to accept that we die, we disappear and we are forgotton!

I have to say my views on religion mirror yours totally and absolutely. I'm leaving you to fight the corner

miranda2 · 05/08/2003 12:08

Hey, Tom's here to help me! And much better put than I've been managing...

So I suppose I'd better do the test he's set me - getting my excuses in first, I have not done a theology masters and have not done any specific courses on these texts, so this is pretty general.

I think the patriarchal narratives in teh Pauline letters (and no, I didn't know they were called that either) are:
short answer: wrong!!!! (ooh, nice and controversial)
longer 'nuanced' version:
They are a product of their time. Paul was trying to not make Christianity more controversial than it was already, and shaking gender roles was jsut too revolutionary (Jesus and the very early church seem to have done it, but it was lost pretty quickly as society too strong against it). Paul is very hot on not causing 'scandal'. Of course, this depends entirely on what society considers scandalous , so now I would say that obeying the spirit of what paul says would mean having complete gender (and sexual) equality in the church, as not having is causing scandal to those outside. Also female prophetesses, with long unbound hair, etc were hallmarks of several mystery cults around at the time, and he may well have been trying to avoid Christianity being seen just as one of these (Fiorenza is good on this I seem to recall). Plus there's the analogy with christ/bridegroom, church/bride; this was a time honoured image (lots of the OT prophets visualise Israel as a woman being unfaithful to her husband God), so unsurprising it was used, and since marriage was as it was as the time the way it was used is unsurprising. Interesting to use the same image today - if you put in our ideas about marriage you get a lot of the modern theology - god as our partner in creation, religion being about a loving relationship. The thing is, if we use a human image of God then obviously it is limited to our current understanding and outlook, and its meaning will change.
Have I passed??

OP posts:
Harrysmum · 05/08/2003 12:12

Tom - loved your post on the how and why of belief & science - summed it up perfectly! Thank you.

Another thought - good doesn't always mean nice and perfect doesn't mean without discipline.

miranda2 · 05/08/2003 12:22

Also just wanted to say that I agree with Tom on religion being a pain in the arse (no need to apologise!) - it makes me laugh when people suggest its just a crutch to make me feel better, I've never done anything so hard in my live as try to live out what I now think is true. Its expensive (since I suddenly feel that everyone in the world is my brother or sister, so how can I live an extravagent lifestyle without trying to help?), means I have to go to church (obviously I do now I;m ordained, but even before felt driven to do so...), means I have to struggle for hours at a time with questions about God allowing suffering when those of you who don't believe can just say 'well, its crappy', etc. Why believe? Because I think its true, personal experience etc - its not like I've got a choice. but it isn't an easy ride!

OP posts:
aloha · 05/08/2003 13:37

Tom, God seems awfully intolerant of his 'children' in what he puts up with.

Tom · 05/08/2003 13:58

Lol Miranda - for a non specialist you've not done bad!

I'll try and let you in on my views (sorry if this seems a bit of shop talk to others)...

"short answer: wrong!!!! (ooh, nice and controversial) "

It was in jest, I know, but if you want to hold onto the canon as authoritative, you just can't do that! (As well you know!!) What is the standard by which you say it's wrong? (i.e. what is the norming norm - the key question of ethics!)

"They are a product of their time. "
Spot on - for more reasons than you realise.

"Paul was trying to not make Christianity more controversial..."
Agreed - he didn't like revolution, but what he was doing in terms of gender and the household was highly subversive and reforming, not revolutionary - I'll explain below

Of course, this depends entirely on what society considers scandalous , so now I would say that obeying the spirit of what paul says would mean having complete gender (and sexual) equality in the church, as not having is causing scandal to those outside.
Spot on, but can you explain why???

Also female prophetesses, with long unbound hair, etc were hallmarks of several mystery cults around at the time, and he may well have been trying to avoid Christianity being seen just as one of these (Fiorenza is good on this I seem to recall).
(YES - she's very good on this! But she ultimately discards Paul, which I think is a mistake, as it subverts the authority of the canon)

Plus there's the analogy with christ/bridegroom, church/bride;

This is the key to unlocking a really fruitful interpretation, in my understanding, added to that the context of Paul's conversation - i.e. the Roman family structures.

In Rome, the family was HIGHLY patricarchal, and strict with it - the father was a disciplinarian character, who was seen as both (harsh) ruler and representative of the household. Generally, wives were next down in the hierarchy, then children and slaves. But the nature of the hierarchy would shock us today - it was framed within the extremes of Master and Slave - that was the bottom line - with women and children within it, below men.

Now... from my readings all over the scriptures about the realisation of God's kingdom in the family, we ARE all about moving towards gender equality (in esteem, rights and opportunities), mutual respect and submission, love and service. That is what God wants to move human society towards. (based on a theory of (top word here folks) - Eschatology - which means the theory of end times - i.e. humanity will end up under God's direct rule, which will mean equality/freedom for all)

How to do that in the context of human society, which changes and evolves slowly? Answer: Simply start with where you are at, and take the first step.

I think I'm comfortable taking what Paul said as the word of God to that particular church at that particular time (not to us now!) - when he talked about men being head of the woman as Christ is head of the church, it's almost (and it's hard to do this in text), as if he's saying...

"We all KNOW (in Roman society) that the man in head of the household, but in God's community, headship is modelled by Christ, who saw himself as servant and equal (he humbled himself) to those he led. If you are a man, and head of the household, this is how you should behave".

So what he's emphasising is the servant nature of leadership, rather than the issue of headship (which is all we see when we read it, because that's the kind of issue that gets us arguing!)

So... men are instructed to abandon their heavyhanded rulership of the household and instead, to serve their household.

For me, this is the first step on a road to domestic gender equality, democracy, mutual respect and love. It subverts the dominating nature of Roman Patriarchy and calls for it to be submissive, the exact opposite of dominant.

It is only relevant to the historical context into which Paul spoke.

This really makes sense when you put it next to the other issue in the same passages - slavery.

Paul didn't say "Free the slaves! slavery is immoral" - he basically said "be nice to your slaves - they are children of God too".

But 1800 years later, the church, having absorbed the full message of the gospel, realised that slavery was utterly incompatible with Gods rule, and campaigned for it's abolition.

Similarly, with gender equality, I think Paul was pursuing a REFORMIST, SUBVERSIVE agenda, that would break down Roman Patriarchy and lead to establishing a strong strand of pro-women thinking in the church. One would hope that 1800 years later, the church would act simmilarly to the gender issue as it has done to slavery.

Unfortunately, the church has been dominted by a radical anti-women stance, and very often Pauls' passages have been the key reference to justify this. The mistake has been to see the household codes as a blueprint for all families at all times in all cultures. I think this is a radical error - the household codes are a message to the Roman Church in the first century, that reveal this reforming, subversive strategy to undermine Roman patriarchy and shake free household structures.

Anyways - those are my thoughts.

On your other point, marriage and theology - I've studied this, and I think all our thinking on marriage can be found in 4 main traditions of thinking, 3 of which were theological, and the other 1 was a direct reaction to theology...

  • marriage as sacrament (indissoluble union made by God) - catholic thought

  • marriage as covenent (dissoluble union made by two people, witnessed by god) - protestant thought

  • marriage as commonwealth (marriage built into creation for the benefit of men, women, children, society) - anglican thought

  • marriage as contract (free agreement between two individuals - breakable at any time) - enlightenment thought

OK - that is the LAST time I ever post a huge long message on a theological issue!!!!

Tom · 05/08/2003 14:01

And Aloha - I don't really understand what you mean, but if it's a comment on the lack of justice in the world, then don't forget the possibility that justice is perfect beyond this world!

Tortington · 05/08/2003 14:31

i wish i understood all of that tom, but what i understood backed up my thoughts on the bible being interpretted in different ways by different people. and how anyone can read almost anything into it. is not this the danger? many acts of evil can be justified using the bible becuase people read into it their own interpretation. i dont understand how people would want to enforce it or believe in it literally.

i keep getting stuck on the point that if you do not follow christ - you dont get in heaven - it doesnt matter how good you are - you dont get in. if this was true i wouldnt want to be in.

Tom · 05/08/2003 14:42

Interesting point Custardo - you have just explained why the protestant church, relying as it supposedly does on "just scripture" has seen so many splits down the centuries - as soon as a competing interpretation comes along, the differences can pretty quickly become irreconcilable and churches split off.

Of course, when you train, study and debate in theology, there are traditions and rules about how scripture is interpreted and you can't just come up with anything willy nilly.

Miranda will correct me, but within the anglican tradition, you rely on (I think), scripture, reason, discussion within community and prayer - so it's not as simple as just loads of competing interpretations - they do need to make sense to the church, resonate with the history, and remain faithful to the text (if you look back on what I wrote, I tried to do all of that).

On the other thing..
"keep getting stuck on the point that if you do not follow christ - you dont get in heaven - it doesnt matter how good you are - you dont get in. if this was true i wouldnt want to be in. "

That's not my understanding (another competing interpretation!) - what I understand is that Christ is the door to heaven, and only he chooses who will pass - of course following him will help, but it doesn't guarentee it (theres a parable about lanterns that says something about this!) and of course God is wild, uncontrollable, beyond our reason and understanding, and has the perfect right to choose whoever they want to get into heaven - you could already have a nice room there with your name on it.

Oh - and also in Christianity, we're not going to heaven - we're all going to lived on a new earth - check Revelation if you don't believe me!

Tortington · 05/08/2003 15:05

you mean i have to come back here again!?
tom i like your explaination as far as getting into heaven or getting on the bus to the new earth. i therefore believe you. however i am catholic so the pope might send me to hell.

talking of which - what do you think of old popey? any catholics out there with an opinion - apart from rhuby who is refinedly insane on the subject.

i personally cant see the point of the old goat miself.

Tortington · 05/08/2003 15:07

hey tom.... is there a hell if there isnt a heaven?

ks · 05/08/2003 15:23

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn

Tortington · 05/08/2003 15:29

erm i dunno KS i havent been anything else - although sexy isnt how i would describe it - how about guilt ridden - yeah thats about right - catholics fell guilty about everything - its in their blood.
i have been in beautiful churches at the same time feeling embarrassed that i am worshiping in a place that could feed the third world - and all the art and gold that popey keeps "safe" from the world in the vatican could feed them too.

we usually have sexual hangups you know its nasty and wrong its dirty and horrible. so you either believe that or rebel against it.

i think theres nothing more appealing to a man who isnt catholic than to try and get it on with a catholic girl!

ks, there are too many things about catholisism which are wrong present past and future however the same can be said of many other religeons - and is how i practise my faith which i do seperate from religeon

Tom · 05/08/2003 15:30

custardo
I didn't say there wasn't a heaven, I just said we'll live on a new earth. Here's the (biblical) proof...

Isaiah 65:17
"Behold, I will create new heavens and a new earth. The former things will not be remembered, nor will they come to mind.

Revelation 21:1
Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea.

On getting 'into heaven' - I just think God chooses, and there's not a helluva lot we can do about it. For all we know, he could choose the whole of humanity in one great big forgiveness fest at the end of time!

This way of looking at it means that loving God is something humans can only do freely - i.e. free from fear- if you only loved God because you were scared of hell, would it be freely given? No - it would be given under threat.

One of the things I believe about God is that they gave us free will so that if we did love them, that love would be freely given. It's very similar to being a parent - we know we cannot demand or even earn our children's love - it is freely given by them if they choose. If we try to scare them into loving us (with threats etc), it invariably backfires. If anyone makes sense of that - congrats! (I may just be a mad bloke tho!!!!)

The pope? Well it's a good strategy for ending arguments between theologians with different interpretations of the bible! i.e. Pope speaks, everyone else has to shut up now!

Tortington · 05/08/2003 15:43

are you telling me we cannot swim on the new earth tom?

Harrysmum · 05/08/2003 15:50

Hi Tom

What's your day job? I wish I could put things as succinctly but I think we may have reached a schism - I know that we have no right to determine how God chooses those who enters heaven but I think that there is something we can do about it in terms of accepting Him as Saviour - what about the verses on in my Father's house there are many rooms and I go there now to prepare a place for you etc. I think that there is a promise that Christians can hold on to in terms of one day being with God (and I guess at that stage we'll be beyond the petty it's not fair how come he got in when I know he was bad/horrible/wicked during his time on earth). When you say following Christ is helpful but not a guarantee do you mean that there is more to being a Christian that just turning up to church and being a good person (in which case, I agree with you entirely).

Maybe the promise of hell is to spur Christians on to evangelising rather than threatening non-Christians.

And there is an element of fear in the relationship with God but I think it's probably better defined as healthy respect - the fear of God is the first step to wisdom etc. I don't fear my parents but as a child I had sufficient respect for them to stay out of trouble.

And the pope - I have a tremendous amount of respect for the Catholic faith and think that protestant churches are the poorer for the lack of mysticism (?sp) sometimes but can't see much that's biblical about having a conduit to God other than Jesus.

Hope this makes sense.

aloha · 05/08/2003 16:08

I referred to your statement that God would not put up with bullshitters. There's so much he won't put up with, it seems, including not putting up with us not worshipping him (my but he's arrogant!) - but what do you mean by not putting up with? Sending to hell or what?
Oh, and Custardo, I agree. If I can't go to the seaside I'm not going!
Am I the only person here who's not scared by oblivion? The idea of all eternity of infinite goodness where we are of indeterminate age and sex and our kids might be older than us and we are surrounded by everyone who ever lived and you can never see the sea...no, I want to die old and tired and ready to go and not come back. And I'll hopefully leave a child or two on earth and maybe even a grandchild. That's my idea of heaven!

Tom · 05/08/2003 17:00

Hey aloha

I actually think God puts up with alot of bullshit in the world, from God's so called "supporters" and opponents - having given humanity free will, god has let us run amok, and rarely intervenes (think war, famine, poverty), relying on only love as a way of pulling people back towards choosing good. Of course god puts up with people not worshipping - if there WAS an omnipitent god who coudn't tolerate not being worshipped - surely we'd all have been zapped by now!

God even puts up with people starting wars in God's name (think Osama and George!). I think God is very tolerant!!

What I meant was that I don't think God takes people's quest for truth seriously unless they really are serious - i.e. you need to be open to the possibility that there is a truth greater than your own understanding, and be prepared to change your mind if you are shown, for God to take your search seriously - that is, of course, in my experience and HO. If people are engaging in the debate to score points, annoy christians, play intellectual games etc, then I don't think God graces that kind of bullshit with much revelation. (and I'm not referring to anyone on this board!)

Saying that though, for everyone I know who has come to a knowledge of God, it has been an intensely personal experience that could only have worked for them, as an individual.

The arrogance, in my experience, comes mainly from humanity (myself included) who seem to think we are big enough to understand all of life with our 'science' and 'intuition'. The realisation of a real God out there provokes, in me, an incredible sense of the need to submit my own understanding and open myself up to God's life and world. There is a bit of mysticism in this, I think. It's a question of the orientation of the heart.

Harrysmum - I know what you're saying, but I just think that while we have revelation of many things, and God's character and personhood is consistent only God knows the truth about anyone (including ourselves), and God is sovereign, not us. We can create rules and principles based on revelation, and discuss them to the ends of the earth, but at the end of the day, God is God, not the vicar (or theologian!) God can do what God wants. Theology is merely a human (and therefore flawed) way of thinking. This is probably the greatest lesson I have learnt from theology! (From Barth!)

"Accepting him as saviour" - anyone who has experienced this will know that the sense of personal knowledge and the comfort that can flood into your life sits on a sense of incredible security, love, peace and God's power. I agree that having done this, there is tremendous assurance for the future. BUT don't ever forget - God is sovereign and free, and does as God wants! Salvation gives us no claim on God - it is just a human response of love to our creator - freely given, freely recieved, no strings attached!

Fear of God - yup - I know what you mean - it is a unique kind of fear - awe is a better word, I think. But fear of hell (which is fear of the absence of God) is another thing - not something I buy into.

Oh no - I've gone and done another long post - apologies everyone.

Mog · 05/08/2003 20:54

Tom,
Tell us what someone with a masters in theology does for a living?

Tom · 05/08/2003 21:00

I run this:
www.fathersdirect.com
Among other tings )