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Ask Miranda a theological question!

221 replies

miranda2 · 31/07/2003 22:25

Since the other thread is getting long, I thought I'd start another in case anyone was still interested. (Am I mad??....) Won't be offended if no-one posts!!

OP posts:
Jimjams · 03/08/2003 11:08

here we go- answered my own quesion- and that of bloss's too. One of the accounts that appears to have been destroyed:

home.epix.net/~miser17/Thomas.html

Jimjams · 03/08/2003 11:10

This looks better- haven't read any of this yet btw.

www.earlychristianwritings.com/thomas.html

ScummyMummy · 03/08/2003 11:12

Try here too, Jimjams. Looks like a good mini intro.

bloss · 03/08/2003 11:48

Message withdrawn

Jimjams · 03/08/2003 12:02

Isn't the gospel of st thomas a bit buddhist? (Just from flicking through some of the links- thanks scummy.

Have to say I prefer buddhism (is that a word) to christianity.

nursie · 03/08/2003 12:08

Here's a thought : is it possible that there are inconsistencies in the Bible because is it man's attempt to interpret the mind of God?
I am loving reading this thread; it's always good to know why others believe or not.

doormat · 03/08/2003 12:12

Nursie good point. It could also be through "chinese whispers" ie when an event happens, as it gets passed round by word of mouth the story gets bits added on and embellished.
Just a thought

JJ · 03/08/2003 13:57

Oh dear, Miranda, wishy washy liberal is good in my book too (both politically and religiously). Sorry for the seeming disrespect it was a late night and I forgot that tone gets easily lost. I'm a card carrying wishy washer and just as you described, but without the religion, if that makes sense. Anyway, I was trying to ask for someone who is more of a literalist wrt the Bible for the answers to those questions or really, what the official church policy is on those issues.

Scummy, it is hard to like organized religion at the moment, I agree. But I think that the majority of religious people are like Bloss and Miranda and, no matter whether they are a literalist or liberal, believe in tolerance and respect for all people. At least your country isn't tampering with its foundation so as to appease the loud intolerant contingent (which contains religious and non-religious people).

Mog · 03/08/2003 14:16

Doormat, be honest now - how much of the bible have you read. I certainly wouldn't describe it as a list of rules and regulations.

doormat · 03/08/2003 15:55

Mog I never said the bible was a list of rules and regulations. I said it ALSO had rules and regulations for us to live by aswell as a collection of stories and legends IMO.
What are the ten commandments then???Doesnt Jesus talk about how we should live our lives ???? Sorry but IMO that is a way of controlling the population, be it right or wrong but it is still a form of control.

In answer to your question, I have read alot of the bible, I was brought up reading it and attending church and sunday school.I am no expert, just a basic knowledge.

aloha · 03/08/2003 16:01

Miranda, I have heard this before, that Jesus is proof and his miracles are the only proof that can be offered - ever. But I have a huge problem with this (ie a huge problem with understanding why you think this). God says that unless you believe you won't get into heaven (because you don't get there by works). He is also supposed to be a loving God (something else I see no evidence for - he commits an awful lot of murders for a loving God, according to the OT). So if he loves us and wants us to be saved, and he sees an awful lot of us down here not believing, why doesn't he do something - ANYTHING! - to help us out a bit. After all, I can't go around believing in things for which in my view there is no evidence. And no, I don't think that the writings of a few men thousands of years ago are enough for me. Yes, I believe that a man called Jesus existed, was charismatic, claimed to be the son of God, gathered followers and was subsequently executed. But it's a giant step to move from that to believing in God, don't you think? You ask what would God have to do to convince me. I don't know - I'm not the omniscient one! - but I really think that if he's playing fair with his creations he should try something more than once every million years or so!

aloha · 03/08/2003 16:02

I don't think a rational person can actually sit down and say, well, actually I think all this is a lot of nonsense, but I will choose to believe it.

Jimjams · 03/08/2003 19:23

I'm with aloha. Absolutely. Not only was he charasmatic he also had a great PR man in the form of Paul. TBH I quite like The Life of Brian version of events.

ks · 03/08/2003 20:29

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn

miranda2 · 03/08/2003 20:49

Skipping back to JJs question which still hasn't been addressed: what is a sin and are some worse than others?
Strictly speaking, theology tends to deal with 'sin' (singular) rather than 'sins' (plural) - this isn't as pedantic as it sounds, as 'sins' tend to be one-off actions - eg, a one night stand or nicking something - whereas 'sin' is humanity's state of separation from God. We tend to talk in terms of sins because they are the symptoms that we see (and the things that society wants to control by using religious language and threats...), but the real issue isn't the symptoms but the cause. The idea of sin is that people have set themselves against God (as the Adam and Eve story puts very well - and when I call it a myth I don't mean fiction in a disparaging sense, some truths can only be adequately expressed in story format - so the story might be more true than a historical account, that is might express what was really happening better - this kind of symbolic true story is called a myth). If you think of the way small children are totally egotistical, incapable of empathy or generosity, then you get the idea: they haven't comitted 'sins' at all, obviously, but they are not yet what we want people to be - loving, caring, thoughtful etc. An analogy often used in the bible is the image that as children are to adults, we are to God. Obviously this isn't literally true (I think bloss will agree? ), since God is infinitely more than we can comprehend, but it points us in the right direction. I imagine anyone of us would agree that we are often selfish, grasping, egotistical creatures who don't love our neighbour (ie everyone in the world) as much as ourselves? Well thats sin.
Teh second bit of the question, are there worse sins than others, uses the other definition, of 'sins'. IMO the answer to this is 'no'; sin is endemic in our lives, it twists our relationships with each other and with God.[ Christianity (possibly other religions too, I don't know) is at least partly about recognising this - we can't begin to put things right if we don't recognise they are wrong in the first place.] As a result of sin, we commit 'sins', but these aren't the problem they are symptoms, and although they can be very destructive they are not what God is ultimately concerned with. Anyway, to someone infinitely good, a tiny wrong and a huge wrong are both pretty much the same! Of course, they are not the same to society, and different societies place different values on different crimes or actions, and of course they get lumped on to the dominant religion in that society. So for example the church at the moment seems to be obsessed with sex, and listening to some of the stuff shouted about when Jeffrey John was appointed you'd think God was far more concerned who someone slept with than whether they were selling arms to a dictator or oppressing millions of poor workers.

By the way - bloss, I'm not offended and I'm sorry I brought in things other people had said to our discussion, I agree this is not helpful, I was just having a rant!! I think the church needs both of us - well, needs everyone.

Someone wanted the reference to the two laws quote - its Matthew 22:36-40. Jesus says love god and your neighbour - all the other laws and teachings depend on these, in other words all are ways of doing these two. So we can't just ignore all the detailed teaching of the bible, we have to look at it in its original context, see why that was considered the most loving thing at the time (as bloss said about slavery earlier for example) and then consider whether that is still the case in a changed context - you have to take the bible seriously, and doing that involves understanding what it actually says (ie, what the original languaages say, their nuances, literary allusions, jokes, puns, wordplays, possible misreadings etc, not just what our english translation says), and what that meant when it was written.
What we think the bible is is the crux of much of the debate here and in the wider church. Everyone who is a Christian agrees it is 'the inspired word of God' - but we differ enormously on what we mean by that!! The bible certainly isn't God's definitive Word - that is Jesus. A very clever Calvinist (ie about as unliberal as you can get ) theologian called Barth described the bible as 'words witnessing to the Word', which I think is very good. And different bits of the bible are different things. ('Bible' means 'books', plural) - some are history (which is different from what we mean by history, but still recognisable), some poetry, the psalms seem to be a hymn book, some is myth, some (like the gospels) are the equivalent of the 'oral history' you get now when asking old people about the first world war, some are people's descriptions of dreams or visions they had, etc etc. Very little even purports to be written by God himself without human intervention - the only bit I think off the top of my head that claims to be this is the 10 Commandments (which are described as being written by the finger of God on the stone tablets). But that isn't to say the whole can't be inspired by God.
After all, if you think about it, why do people think it is God's word (as so many indisputably do)? It can't just be because the bible says so - few people are so dumb as to believe a document because the document tells them to! And in fact the bible doesn't make any such claim - as someone said earlier, the books that go into the bible were only set in the 4th century, and there is no overall introduction or anything saying 'the following book is God's word' (I mean, there isn't in the bible itself). BUT, people do believe it. I think this is because something about the bible commands respect and to be taken seriously, people read it and EXPERIENCE it as being God's word because it has a transformative effect on them. I accept this may seem hard to swallow if you've read bits and pieces, and if you don't believe the whole thing. But if you try reading say one of the gospels - the whole thing at a time, in a good modern translation (say the NIV or RSV eg - not the King James Version!!) - and give it a try, they are only as long as a chapter of a novel - you may well be struck by something about it which rings true. I'm not saying I think you'll be converted and suddenly say 'oh yes its all true', I'm saying you'll probably find it intriguing, perplexing, some bits will really stike a chord and seem amazingly relevant, other bits will really annoy you. After all, why are we having this thread if people aren't interested?? People get very annoyed with the bible where it seems immoral, dangerous, wrong because for some reason it seems IMPORTANT that it be right. I don't think that's jsut becasue so many people do think its right, because it seems to have had that effect right from the beginning, through Jewish history before Jesus as well as in the last 2000 years. Yes its a human document, yes it is a variety of things and genres, yes it isn't God - but it is understood as inspired by God because people experience it as mediating God to them.

I'll have to watch it, I'm starting to sound like an evangelical

BTW, my sermon this morning went down OK - though a few raised eyebrows when I compared Jesus to marmite (yes, you get it, you either love him or hate him)...!!! Thanks for all your thoughts/prayers.

OP posts:
miranda2 · 03/08/2003 20:55

BTW, can I name drop? Jeffrey John rang me the other day!!! I was SO UNCOOL!!! the conversation went:
Me: hello?
voice at end of phone: hello, this is Jeffrey John
Me: Oh wow! I can't believe a celebrity is ringing me!
Followed by me dying with embarrasment while he paused in bemusement and then very graciously carried on the conversation...
(He was ringing to thank me for a letter of support I and some other new curates had sent him)
I airily dropped this into conversation with my vicar that evenign - I think he's scared now!!! But hey, what's a girl to do? Gotta sort this church out (in love and humility, of course )

OP posts:
miranda2 · 03/08/2003 20:58

BTW, can I name drop? Jeffrey John rang me the other day!!! I was SO UNCOOL!!! the conversation went:
Me: hello?
voice at end of phone: hello, this is Jeffrey John
Me: Oh wow! I can't believe a celebrity is ringing me!
Followed by me dying with embarrasment while he paused in bemusement and then very graciously carried on the conversation...
(He was ringing to thank me for a letter of support I and some other new curates had sent him)
I airily dropped this into conversation with my vicar that evenign - I think he's scared now!!! But hey, what's a girl to do? Gotta sort this church out (in love and humility, of course )

OP posts:
Mog · 03/08/2003 22:26

One of the best definitions of sin I've heard, Miranda. Fancy popping onto the other thread and sorting out homosexuality, it's getting nasty

Tinker · 03/08/2003 22:40

Miranda - what is your view on heaven? I mean, if sin is not accepting god, would someone go to heaven, (whatever that is) if they led a good life regardless of this? Why does it seem to hinge on acceptance of/belief in god when all logic gives us no reason to do so? Why is god so hung up on us stating we believe?

I'm also having trouble with, "Anyway, to someone infinitely good, a tiny wrong and a huge wrong are both pretty much the same!" So Hitler equals me having a one night stand?

You're not the ex-Bond girl are you

bloss · 03/08/2003 23:45

Message withdrawn

Tinker · 04/08/2003 00:38

None of this makes any sense to me whatsoever.

Why are you 'too sinful at heart' if you have accepted Jesus?

How are most people 'turning against him'? By not saying that they believe? Well, then we're back to the vain, foot-stamping spoilt god who demands acknowledgement. That, to me, does not seem to equate with 'a perfect and absolutely good being'. I love my daughter unconditionally, I don't say, you've had you're chance, you've blown it, I'll reject you for eternity since you haven't acknowledged me in some way. Why is he so sensitive?

I still don't get why 2 people who live equally good lives, think of others before themselves, do good works etc will be viewed differently by god if one believes that Jesus was the son of god and the other doesn't. And if that is the case, why would anyone want to worship this god?

Oh, and I'm still intrigued that you believe childbirth pain is a curse from god, not as a result of evolution.

Anyway, this is going round in circles. You can tell I'm not working tomorrow

Podmog · 04/08/2003 08:12

Message withdrawn

Mog · 04/08/2003 08:50

Podmog, I too was thinking the experiential side was being missed out. It's what makes it real for us on a day to day basis.
Hope all goes well in hospital

ScummyMummy · 04/08/2003 09:47

I don't think my moral views and actions are better than yours at all, bloss, or that I'm always right- far, far from it- I get things very wrong all the time. All I was saying is that my moral decision making is unfettered by believing that the final arbiter of my action and thought should be what the bible says. It is finally fettered only by my own fallible conscience. Obviously the bible is open to interpretation and I know that you and others work very hard to interpret it rightly, so I'm not saying that yours is an easy option. I know it is not. But at the end of the day, if I understand correctly, your god has the bible as his infallible mouthpiece, so your moral/social gut feeling/instincts matter not a jot if the bible says something different- they must be tamed. I do accept that it is not necessarily a bad thing to feel humbled in the face of a greater wisdom and that the bible has some messages that are wonderful, beautiful and wise but equally it seems to me that there are some messages in there which encourage vilification and rejection of what other evidence may say is wonderful, beautiful and wise.

A quick example- and it's a personal one because at the end of the day all this moral and religious stuff is about people, real people- the evidence right here on mumsnet, in my interpretation, says that dot1 and juno share a deeply fulfilling love and are great, thoughtful, interested parents. I know I was far from the only one who was delighted when dot recently conceived. I don't know what, if anything, the bible has to say about their situation but I do know I couldn't accept a blanket "man + woman = the only right way" formula, whether it came from the bible or not, as compelling evidence that they are doing something wrong in expressing their love and having a family. I need to go with my conscience on this and so many other things. If the bible in its entirety is viewed as a literal, unchanging, unchangeable truth I think my conscience might be sometimes very at odds with it...

I'm interested in what Podmog and those of you moving away a bit from the bible-based conception of God are saying. Would anyone be prepared to expand a bit on what it's like having God around in your daily lives? How do you experience life as different?

Good luck at the hospital, Podmog

aloha · 04/08/2003 09:57

Miranda, please would you try and answer my question - I am genuinely interested as to why you think God is good - let alone infinitely good. After all he commits murder over and over again, causes awful sufferings and plagues, punishes in a vile and violent way those who dare question him...etc etc etc. As Tinker says, he seems so petty and vengeful - I would not consign my son to enternal punishment just because he didn't want much to do with me. I might be disappointed, but I wouldn't consign him to everlasting pain (because I'm nicer that God, perhaps?). Also, I wouldn't hide from him and never show myself to him but expect him to seek me out and beleive me present and good if I've chosen to hide myself.
And all this 'turning away from God' - it is no such thing. It is a simple inability to believe something for which there is no evidence. I also don't believe in fairies, for exactly the same reason (and no, I'm not being flippant).