Nursery "bad for little boys" - what do you think?

[pixieshell]

Hi Ladies,

I'm supposed to be returning to study this January (to finish a nursing degree) and am looking at nurseries for my 18 month baby boy. I made the mistake of looking online at whether nurseries are good or bad for babies and, of course, I found several articles stating that nursery is not good for children, particularly for boys under 3 years old. Apparently it makes them stressed and more aggressive which can last long into school life.

So now I am feeling incredibly guilty about my proposed return to study! The articles have made me feel like a terrible mother for even considering leaving my baby in a nursery! I have visions of my cuddly, wonderful little boy turning into an aggressive, horrid child! I'm hoping that you'll all be able to reassure me that the articles are wrong and that your little boys are loving nursery.

So what do you think, am I worrying about nothing or should I seriously think about staying home for another couple of years? If only I could afford a nanny!

Thanks

Shelley

I haven't seen it, I'll have a look

MARIA! I read your 20.15 post in the thread you mentioned. I grinned, as today I posted on a thread in chat talking about how I feel the first yrs are "mythical" in the UK

I'll read the book you linked to, at least I can get some theory for my instinctive beliefs

So it seems it is established that a percentage of boys who have been to nursery are perceived by adults to be more aggressive and assertive than other boys. Fine and fair enough.

Has anyone stopped to ask if we know that this is bad?

My nephew was a whingey whiney little thing until he went to nursery: assertive he was certainly not. Nor really aggressive, he got his way by whimpering more than anything else. He perked up no end once he had the chance to learn a bit more about social skills and getting on with other children. So yes, he is more assertive now. But not a bad thing imo. (he;s a very nice little lad)

...quite right Cory. These concepts such as 'aggression' are very vague (except in extreme cases). Also, it's open to question whether it's actually 'established' that (even this vague notion of) aggression is evident in nursery-going little boys.

In France, group care for very young children is widespread. Attachment theory is very widely adhered to here, as well.

Aggression and assertiveness are very different behavioural traits, though. One is about invading others personal space; the other is about protecting your own personal space.

Really anna? I didn't know attachment theory was so widespread in france... (nor that group care for very young children is widespread). Interesting. I thought in france attachment theory was not so widespread? (I was wrong probably).

Group care is very very widespread here - lots of crèches (which is full-time nursery care from 2 months of age to 3 years) and garderies, which is part-time nursery care, largely aimed at SAHMs or nannies to relieve them of the burden of full-time childcare.

Attachment theory is pretty much unquestioned here - it's everywhere. Which is not to say that children are not brought up to routine - they are.

Having worked with a lot of children over a long period of time, I'd have to say that I've no doubt at all that nurseries are bad for nearly all children, before the age of three. The line pedalled about 'high quality child care' is bordering on the state sponsoring the abuse of young children. Alan Johnson's recent remarks are ill informed and unhelpful.

One simply needs to imagine how a young child is going to feel, abandoned in a strange environment, with few adults and large numbers of equally distressed children, to get the measure of what is really happening in a nursery.

The debate is stifled by the guilt ridden and greedy adults that are unprepared to put money and possessions behind child welfare.

Admittedly, there will be some who have limited options but for those who just want a new car or a second holiday, I think they need to take a step back and consider their social responsibilities more carefully.

I'm tired of hearing about the pros of nursery care and am seriously concerned about the dysfunction in our society, which is being further exacerbated by the organised neglect of our children, through the utility of nursery provision.

The research points one way, as far as aggression is concerned, ? and at a less cerebral level you?ve only go to look at the amount of biting that goes in nurseries for some supporting evidence. It doesn?t help the debate, that so many people contributing to it have their children in nursery and therefore seek to perpetuate the myth that there is some virtue to it all, beyond wealth acquisition.

One day, sadly, the truth will be more readily apparent and the whole issue will require a new approach. Perhaps then mothers that choose to stay at home with their children will be seen as providing an essential role in our society.

Ed971 - is your post for real?

Many people use nurseries out of necessity. but thousands of women (like me) send their children to nursery and go to work, and in fact hardly net any money at all - they're doing it simply because they care about their career, and/or actually think their children enjoy and get something out of nursery, and/or find being at home with children full-time tedious and unrewarding.

I think your reference to 'mothers' staying at home is telling. Clearly you consider it acceptable for men to want to pursue their independent lives and careers, just not women.

Don't even know why I've bothered replying - mainly I think to find out whether you're a real person with these reactionary views, or just trying to kick off a fight for a joke.

Why have children if looking after them is so unrewarding and tedious? Who's job is it to bring up your children anyway? Do you think that the people who work in nurseries find it really rewarding or are they just earning money? The people in who's hands you place your child have no direct vested interest in your child's emotional and intellectual development. It's not about whether a woman or a man stays at home and it's not a women's rights issue, it's about responsibility to a child that has no choice to be born. To what extent should your right to an interesting career take precedence over your child's well being? Have you ever really thought about this or is just that everybody else does it, so it must be OK?

It's hard bringing up children, for those that can be bothered with it, but if everybody takes their responsibilities seriously, it makes it easier for everyone else in the long run.

You might ask yourself why we have the highest proportion of unhappy children in Europe? Could it be because they have no parents at home to give them the time and attention they need?

I am for real.

People who work in nurseries find the role of childcare rewarding. They do not do it for the money, you can earn more at asda!!!

One would like to believe that this statement applied in all cases but having looked inside a few nurseries, and having followed some of the recent news articles, one has to conclude that this cannot always be true. I am not referring to the more gruesome stories, so much as to the general media observations in regard to nursery provision and its frequent inadequacy with regard to the extent to which it appropriately supports child development. The individualised special support that a parent offers to a very young child of his / her own cannot be duplicated by a carer acting in professional capacity. To imagine that parent care could ever be matched in this way is asking far too much of nursery workers - particularly when the staff / child ratio is balanced so heavily against such an outcome.

I didn't say that looking after my children was tedious and unrewarding, I said that doing it full-time at the expense of any kind of career or independent life was tedious and unrewarding (and this is just my personal view - I know many women who find it completely rewarding. People are just different.) I work part-time, and I find that's just the right balance - and my son loves going to nursery.

A woman who would like to continue working but is forced not to in order to look after her children full-time will certainly not be happy and fulfilled, and will not provide the happiest environment for those children. Think Betty Draper in Mad Men.

And as for 'it's not a women's rights issue' - don't be so naive. I agree with you that it shouldn't be a women's rights issue, and men and women should share the care of their children, but it was you who used the word 'mothers' and it's easy to see why you did - in the vast majority of cases, it is the woman who has to give up work, because it is the woman who is paid less. (And/or because men refuse to contemplate staying at home.) Either way, a women's rights issue.

This is not as black and white as you portray it. Some nursery workers find their work rewarding and others don't. Some parents are suited to full-time childcare, others aren't.

ed971 - are you from the IT contractors msg board, by any chance?

DS went to nursery. He is now 10, has never been stressed and is not remotely aggressive. has never been in a fight, despite being surrounded by boisterous boys. His main hobby is singing.

So dunno what this says about nurseries making boys stressed and aggressive.

S'pect this research is of a small sample and you shouldn't extrapolate from it.

Ed - your experience is not my experience. I love working and would never choose to stop working outside the home. This isn't a matter of money or greed. It's about challenge and stretch and it's about who I am. It works for me. Who are you to challenge my choices?

Good nurseries are full of caring, capable staff who want to give their very best for the children in their care. Bad nurseries are usually the cheap nurseries. They usually give as much care as they can for the price. Because the good staff aren't stupid, they tend to get jobs in the good nurseries, meaning the poorer ones have 2 options: accept they can't fill their vacancies with good staff so hire ones they know are not that good, or leave the vacancies unfilled and turn customers away.

They always choose the latter.

Nurseries/education has always been set up around what girls do well. Sitting still, paying attention, using pencils etc. Boys are much more physical and practical but those qualities have never been valued all that much. It's changing now. Nurseries should be putting more emphasis on the outdoors and different ways of learning other than "sit down and pay attention!".
For example: girls could learn counting by threading beads on a string, while boys could learn the same thing in the garden by playing skittles or jumping along numbered stepping stones.