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Nursery "bad for little boys" - what do you think?

143 replies

pixieshell · 04/09/2009 11:56

Hi Ladies,

I'm supposed to be returning to study this January (to finish a nursing degree) and am looking at nurseries for my 18 month baby boy. I made the mistake of looking online at whether nurseries are good or bad for babies and, of course, I found several articles stating that nursery is not good for children, particularly for boys under 3 years old. Apparently it makes them stressed and more aggressive which can last long into school life.

So now I am feeling incredibly guilty about my proposed return to study! The articles have made me feel like a terrible mother for even considering leaving my baby in a nursery! I have visions of my cuddly, wonderful little boy turning into an aggressive, horrid child! I'm hoping that you'll all be able to reassure me that the articles are wrong and that your little boys are loving nursery.

So what do you think, am I worrying about nothing or should I seriously think about staying home for another couple of years? If only I could afford a nanny!

Thanks

Shelley

OP posts:
Are your children’s vaccines up to date?
Maria2007 · 09/09/2009 09:30

'The system in which mothers have to work and maintain the careers the problem'.

Sorry but am shocked at this statement. Why, could you explain, is it a problem that women have to work & maintain their careers? Actually in many cases they also WANT to work & maintain their careers! Arguing for much more family-friendly flexibility at workplaces is not the same as saying that it's a problem that women work. There is a vast difference.

redfacedandrude · 09/09/2009 09:38

You misunderstand me Maria. The system, the misogynist, anti-family work culture, the problem, not the fact mothers want to maintain and further their careers.

Maria2007 · 09/09/2009 09:41

OK redfaced, understood.

VulpusinaWilfsuit · 09/09/2009 09:46

Interesting discussion. Do the two studies mentioned control for social class and other confounding variables?

redfacedandrude · 09/09/2009 09:47
Smile
Bellsa · 09/09/2009 10:19

My son's been at nursery since he was 3 months old. I don't think I had a choice, or not much of one-the alternative was loosing my house, going on benefits and comprimising my career to the extent that I would have found it difficult to return.
2 things have not been mentioned here-the first is that I would question the blanket assumption that care by mother is the best for a child. I struggled with caring for a baby-not to the extent that I think I was depressed, but I had gone from a very carefree life in another country with a partner, to being a single mother with no family nearby to help. I personally found going back to work made me happier, and gave me a sense of self again, and I really believe that ds was happier in nursery than he would have been with me all the time. I was also happier, and therefore a better mother when I was with him. I have a friend who planned to be a SAHM, suffered from severe PND, and who says that when she returned to work she and her dd were happier. So in some circumstances I do think that nursery care is better for the child.

Secondly, where is the discussion about the fathers here? Do they not feel guilt about leaving their children in nurseries? if not, why not?

I do think the whole issue of childcare is one that needs to be addressed. Its one of the biggest and most devisive social issues in this country. But there are certainly no easy answers, and as parents we are all just doing the best we can...

clemette · 09/09/2009 10:39

Pofaced, the smug and judgemental comment was not in response to a dismissal of anecdotal evidence but in response to the suggestion that nursery care was analagous to weaning at 6 weeks, which the poster has already explained and apologised for the misunderstanding.
You keep conflating my posts and ignoring the fact that the studies you posted to do not support the view yoU propose. I have no desire to change your mind, but would like others to get a balanced, researched view.

redfacedandrude · 09/09/2009 10:42

Absolutely as parents we are all doing the best we can. Neither is a guilt free option [if I worked I could afford nicer holidays for dcs, save for their future, maybe even private schooling for older dc]. And yes, why no emphasis on fathers, only mothers. I think one important thing is the quality of group childcare, which can vary wildly, and the best is not very affordable, in this country at least. This really needs addressing.

redfacedandrude · 09/09/2009 10:48

No that's not true Clemette. I think you misunderstood her because you were feeling defensive, it was obvious she was not comparing your decision to a decision to wean a baby at 6 weeks. Where have I conflated any of your posts? It really is difficult to have a discussion when you keep accusing posters of things. What is this view I propose? All I have said is the current research points to the fact that group care is not generally the best for under twos. And I have merely pointed out that I cannot see anything in your posts that prove otherwise.

redfacedandrude · 09/09/2009 10:49

And what parts of my posts are not balanced? Just because I disagree with you my views are not balanced? Right.

clemette · 09/09/2009 11:23

Is there any chance you could link to some of this academic, peer-checked research?

redfacedandrude · 09/09/2009 12:44

first you accuse the EPPE and NICHD studies of having 'vested interests' [never explained] and consequently that you anecdotal experience is just as valid as evidence [stating something with force does not make it true]Then you change tack and say that actually both studies have been misinterpreted by the media. Perhaps the academic leaders of the studies would know better?
From the Guardian article I linked to earlier:

'All this research is grist to the mill of Professor Jay Belsky, of the Institute for the Study of Children, Families and Social Issues at Birkbeck, University of London. An American with a florid turn of phrase, he has cast himself since the mid-80s in the role of the Jeremiah foretelling doom as day-nursery provision first took off in the US. He claims that his career has been blighted ever since. Initially, he found no evidence that daycare carried risks, but, "In 1986, I began to see a slow, steady trickle of disconcerting evidence which I could no longer explain away and maintain my intellectual honesty. I pointed out that the evidence indicated risks firstly, when care was initiated in the first year of life, secondly, when infants received daycare of more than 20 hours a week and which was continuous until school. At the time, both were rapidly becoming the norm in America. I was portrayed as someone who wanted women in the kitchen; people who had lauded my career now said I had manipulated and distorted the evidence."

Belsky's concerns and the ensuing row was one of the factors which led to the setting up of the NICHD study at the cost of more than $100m (£54m). Belsky worked on the study; he argues that it has vindicated his concerns. The team observed mother-infant interaction for the first 36 months of the baby's life: "We found that the more time the infant spent in care, the less sensitive and harmonious relations were between mother and child at six, 15, 24 and 36 months.

"The biggest risk factor for insecure attachment is insensitive mothering and the impact of that is significantly increased by any one of three risk factors: more than 10 hours of nursery daycare a week in the first year; a change in the childcare arrangements in the infant's first year, and low-quality daycare.

"In the late 1990s, the NICHD studies concluded that the more time children spent in childcare, irrespective of its quality, the more aggressive and disobedient they were between two and six years old, especially so for group care. The mantra in childcare became quality, quality, but the outcomes we saw were not just a function of low quality. What we found was that good quality care predicted better cognitive and linguistic functioning - there's good news as well as bad here - but the more time in care, the more aggressive the child was at two. That aggression disappeared by three but was back at four-and-a-half and older. Those kids scored higher for aggression, disobedience and neediness."

Belsky concedes that he is talking about small average increases - day nurseries do not lead to an increased number of psychopaths - but argues that if large amounts of care in day nurseries for infants are now the norm of American childhood, and likely to become the norm in the UK, the incremental impact has to be considered.

"We have to ask whether a teacher with a class of 30 children, most of whom have been in daycare, is likely to find half of them are a little more aggressive and disobedient? Would that mean the teacher has to spend more time managing the class rather than teaching it? We have to consider the consequences of more and more children spending more and more time in group childcare arrangements, most of which are not high quality. No one wants to be responsible for making mothers feel guilty, but this has to be openly and honestly discussed."

What concerns Belsky since he arrived in the UK in 1999 is that the UK is gradually adopt ing the American model of high maternal employment, mothers going back to work earlier and high levels of daycare. He has made himself the bete-noire of many researchers on both sides of the Atlantic with his tendency to use inflammatory metaphors; he talks of "a steady trickle of pollution seeping into a lake" as cohorts of daycare children grow up.

While Belsky seems happy to stir up controversy and is, therefore, anathema in some government policymaking circles, his close colleague at Birkbeck, Professor Ted Melhuish, picks his words more carefully. He is probably the most respected academic in the field of childcare in the UK; he worked on the EPPE study, and is heading the £16m evaluation of the government's flagship programme for pre-school children, Sure Start. He has just completed a review of all the international research on childcare for the National Audit Office, which found other studies, such as one from Norway, substantiating the Anglo-American research.

"The quantity of daycare under the age of two affects some aspects of social development - there's a slight risk of increased disruptive, anti-social behaviour and children less likely to obey rules and be less cooperative," he tells me. "You start to see it once children are spending 20-25 hours in daycare and the risks increase when they are spending more than 40 hours in daycare, which is not atypical if the woman is in full-time employment with two commutes."

What preoccupies him is whether it is possible to identify what causes these negative consequences, and if they could be reduced: "We know the importance for infants in the first two years of responsive, individual attention for significant parts of the day to develop their socio-interactive skills. We also know that the responsiveness of group care is much less than in other childcare settings such as childminders. To improve the responsiveness of group care requires maintaining very high staff-infant ratios and keeping staff turnover down to an absolute minimum: both are very expensive."

You have also put words in Leach's mouth to suit you own opinion and backed it up, not by a quote from her new book, but by a quote from an online reviewer of her new book. As an academic skilled in research this is an odd way of proving your argument.

clemette · 09/09/2009 13:42

I am not proving my argument, I am attempting to DISPROVE yours. I read the nichd reports rather than Guardian article about the reports. As I, and others have said, extrapolting facts from the American system doesn't hold water when applied to a very different British system. In the absence of any credible, peer- reviewed study evidence, unfortunately anecdotal accounts are pretty much all the OP has to go on.
Leach's view has changed and she stresses the need for group care of the highest quality. It is thus more helpful to those who want or need to use childcare for babies and toddlers to explain what this is. I can't c+p chunks of her text using my phone, but those in the OPs position may want to read her new book to get a less scare-mongered view.
Ultimately it is each parent's decision, but the decision is difficult to make if the limitations of the "evidence" are not discussed.
PS I maintain biddulph has a vested interest.
Right, off ti enjoy the rest of my holiday...

francagoestohollywood · 09/09/2009 13:44

His career doesn't really seem to have been blighted, given that he was awarded a research worth £54 million.

Plus, the article doesn't say much on how this research has been carried out, on the actual method of the research.

As it is reported "there's good news as well as bad here - but the more time in care, the more aggressive the child was at two. That aggression disappeared by three but was back at four-and-a-half and older. Those kids scored higher for aggression, disobedience and neediness.", it doesn't really say much does it?
Does it take into consideration, for instance, the differences between single families?
Because the common denominator of these children is having attended nursery, but each child comes from a different family, with different ways to relate, to discipline, to love, to give affection, to tell off. Therefore, I'm still quite of these researches.

francagoestohollywood · 09/09/2009 13:48

And yes, in my 8 yrs in the UK I've always noticed that the uk media are usually quite against group childcare, which , on the other hand, is favoured in many parts of continental Europe (usually those places that come at the top of children well being lists)

pofacedandproud · 09/09/2009 13:48

'I am not proving my argument' How convenient. And not true seeing as you have stated that your anecdotal experience is as valid as the actual research. The Guardian article about the reports actually interviewed the academic leaders of both reports, but obviously you must know more about the studies than they do.

francagoestohollywood · 09/09/2009 13:49

To be honest, as it's never explained how these researches are carried out, personal experience is just as valid

pofacedandproud · 09/09/2009 13:50

I think one tends to notice things in the media that rankle with the individual. I find quite a bit of anti-SAHM stuff in the media. And there is lots of postive nursery stuff being shown - look at Cbeebies where nearly all the children shown are at nurseries, having fun. very few are shown at home with mum/dad.

pofacedandproud · 09/09/2009 13:51

Well I'll have to disagree with that franca. [ad nauseum]

francagoestohollywood · 09/09/2009 14:03

Yes
To be honest, I was a SAHM for most of the time we lived in the UK and I've always felt that the UK is a country for SAHM, certainly more than my country of origin. There is, in the UK, a myth of sahmotherhood.

Don't know much about Cbeebies, my dc were at nursery (part time of course, I don't want to upset poor old Biddulph), so no tv for them

pofacedandproud · 09/09/2009 14:05

Ooh nice dig franca! No tv even with part time nursery? [admiring]

pofacedandproud · 09/09/2009 14:07

I disagree with you about the SAHM thing in UK. I find there is a great pressure to send your kids to nursery to conform, to fit in, from the age of 2, nothing to do with working or not. [lots of SAHMs round here send children to nursery, and yes, they're quite well off, unlike me ]

francagoestohollywood · 09/09/2009 14:15

... no, they did watch tv when they were younger, but only after dinner, half an hour or so before going to bed. But they survived for quite a long time on Maisy dvds... ah good old times!

Do you really find there is pressure to send them to nursery? I remember I was frowned upon for having chosen to send them to nursery.

pofacedandproud · 09/09/2009 14:17

Really? Definitely around here it is the norm.

ZippysMum · 09/09/2009 14:22

I think this is a really difficult topic - because many don't feel they have a real choice, or because they feel judged for wanting to make a choice for / against nursery or other childcare.

I am very fortunate that the choice I would hope to make for my children (to have the full-time care of a parent up to at least age 3) will be possible for us. I would not want to entrust the most important job my husband and I have to a childminder, nursery nurse or nanny.

But I might feel differently and have a different opinion if I had to / wanted to have my children looked after by someone else.