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Original poster

Would anyone be interested in calmly discussing this Times articles with me please?

540 replies

Sycamoretree · 19/05/2009 11:15

Article from Times 2 today.

here

Have read with interest as DH is currently SAHD due to redunancy over a year ago, so my youngest, (DS) has only been cared for at home with a parent. He is 20 months old.

My DD is at pre-school and starts reception in Sept. She had a nanny for the first couple of years until DH got made redundant.

DH is trying hard to get back into full time work and nursery was/is something we are considering. We certainly could no longer afford a nanny for one on one childcare.

I'm particularly interested in anyone who can confidently refute this quote from Steve Biddulph:

"quality nursery care for young children doesn't exist. It is a fantasy of the glossy magazines."

On the one hand I am furious that such an article gets printed as so many of us are between a rock and hard place when it comes to just surviving, and nurseries are often the only solution.

On the other hand, if any of this is actually true, then as a society, we need to start having this debate/conversation - surely?

OP posts:
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francagoestohollywood · 19/05/2009 20:41

Actually Laquitar, depends on where in Italy. People work ridicolous hrs in Milan and it is very very difficult to get part time jobs. Many families in Italy need to juggle nurseries/babysitters/grandparents etc.

Actually Italy is the country with the lowest fertility rate in Europe, which is linked to a low rate of women in full time occupation. So, you see, if women can't work they don't even go to have children in other parts of the world.

francagoestohollywood · 19/05/2009 20:45

Forgot to say, Laquitar: nothern Italy enjoyed a good legislation in the 1970s that made it possible to have subsidized nurseries, with professional, well paid staff (staff need some sort of degree to work in nurseries). Therefore the standard of care is very high (or at least it used to be, as less money is invested nowadays , thanks to right wing administrations). All my friends use nurseries here.

foxinsocks · 19/05/2009 20:45

what annoys me about childcare is how it seems to be geared towards those who have the most money and how so much of it is not flexible. When mine were babies, childcare was easy. Now they are at school it's a farking nightmare.

(just ignoring the care aspect and looking at finances)

if I wanted the cheapest and most convenient childcare for my two, I'd get an au pair. But I can't get an au pair because my house isn't big enough. To get a bigger house in London, I'd need a vast amount more money. We can't move out of London as dh's job completely tied to working here.

After school clubs close at 6pm and we can't get back from central London by then (and they don't run in holidays and we'd have no cover for when they are sick as we have no family in this country).

We haven't been able to find a childminder in this area that fits into our work pattern (not that unusual but requires some flexibility).

So our only option is a nanny. And we need a full time one as she still needs to cover sickness and holidays. So we have ended up with the most expensive form, just because we have no other alternative. It happens to be the option I am most happy with (and the children) as they have continuity of care and have built a lovely bond with her but I do despair at the cost of it.

foxinsocks · 19/05/2009 20:46

(no family near enough in this country I should say before dh's parents curse me from afar!)

Nancy66 · 19/05/2009 20:46

Fox - can you get daily au pairs?

foxinsocks · 19/05/2009 20:47

no, you need them to live with you (for it to be legit and I refuse to fund the black market childcare market which I think is probably enormous!)

daftpunk · 19/05/2009 20:48

ormIrian;

of course feminism is a good thing...but i don't think it's given all women utopia.

Laquitar · 19/05/2009 20:49

Ok thanks Franca. I come from the south and been away for 25 years. You can tell...

foxinsocks · 19/05/2009 20:49

I don't want this to be about me and my situation, was just using it as an example.

But what I think has happened is that jobs have become more flexible but childcare hasn't, unless you have vast sums of money or family to help you out.

foxinsocks · 19/05/2009 20:50

were women looking for utopia though? I think they were just looking to be given the opportunities that men had been afforded for years.

GivePeasAChance · 19/05/2009 20:51

Abstract from a study from Harvard Uni about the subject:

Comes with my particular approach that you can prove anything in social science if you have the will.........but there is lots of evidence that it makes no difference at all (and I think there is the other way, but can't actually find anything to support to Biddulph's argument when I looked a minute ago however I am sure there must be some and he would not just be scaremongering )

I seem to remember a study showing that the most important thing is the quality of time with the parent quite recently, but didn't find it just now.

Anyhow here you are for now:

francagoestohollywood · 19/05/2009 20:52

Oh Laquitar, really? where?
I must add that we were in the Uk when main were at nursery, which I chose because in Italy nurseries have alwasy been highly regarded. Little did I know...

francagoestohollywood · 19/05/2009 20:54

main? my dc I meant

Laquitar · 19/05/2009 20:57

Lol franca. From Naples. But i dont want to take over the thread,sorry OP

daftpunk · 19/05/2009 21:02

foxinsocks;

yes i know, and that was a long time coming...and way over due!

you know i didn't realise women were still putting up with domestic abuse until i joined mumsnet...have you read relationships?... and i had to hide mental health because every other thread was about women not coping.....

anyway..the trouble with working women is on now...signing off.

francagoestohollywood · 19/05/2009 21:03

sorry OP

MIAonline · 19/05/2009 21:03

It is difficult to debate this effectively for many reasons:
The main factor is that it such a personal issue for so many and can never stay as a debate about the quality and appropriateness of nurseries and will always become mixed up with the WOHM/SAHM due to people using their own personal experience as a yardstick.
The quality of journalism in this country can be appalling and articles are often written by biased journalists, again, often using their own experiences and not relying on facts. This can work both in favour of and against nurseries.
The youngest children in this country are the least heard and catered for and adults would rather see it from their own perspective rather than put themselves in a child's shoes.

mumblecrumble · 19/05/2009 21:05

There is a TV program just started on BBC 2 that might interest those who have posted here?

francagoestohollywood · 19/05/2009 21:05

I'm not sure if little children are the less catered for generation. I find the UK quite obsessed by pre schoolers, tbh. Which is fine, but really noticeable.

pointydog · 19/05/2009 21:17

I suspect the Brits might obsess and worry about a whole host of things: food scares, nursery education and I'll see if I think of more

MIAonline · 19/05/2009 21:19

In what way Franca? Genuine question

jellybeans · 19/05/2009 21:23

jellybeans 'if parenting is a full time job and I work full time hours outside the home then does that make me a part-time parent then? '

I wouldn't really class anyone as full/part time parent to be honest (other than if someone asked me my occupation and I had a baby and was SAH then I may say full time mum or SAHM). When I worked f/t I wouldn't have been offended by the term 'full time mum' used by others (don't remember noticing it really), I was OK with my choice at the time and when I wasn't I gave up to stay home, it's just a term after all.

I do think parenting is a full time job, yes, in terms of workload, but you are still the parent with someone helping with the care.

My older kids are at school and I see myself as a SAHM to them rather than f/t mum.

jellybeans · 19/05/2009 21:27

It's great that women have opportunities and can have careers but sometimes I think many jobs are overated and unfulfilling and whereas many have gained opportunities, others are denied them (eg if they wanted to SAH with their baby). Alot of men would love to not have to work. It's not always so great, there is alot to be said for time to yourself instead rather than for an employer.

francagoestohollywood · 19/05/2009 21:29

I can't really put my finger on it MIA, but I def felt it when living in the UK. As if parents/society invested a great deal emotionally into the early age. Which is - imo- just a stage in the development of a person, not this mythical age where literally everything is shaped.

Is this too confused? Sorry, it's getting late here

MIAonline · 19/05/2009 21:41

Franca, I know what you mean and I think it can feel like that depending on the area/groups you are surrounded by. But, I still think that more generally in society, young children's actual needs are often sidelined or ignored.

I don't think everything is shaped in the early years, but there is a great deal of evidence to suggest that experiences in the early years do have the greatest influence over a person's future.

You are right though, don't know your time difference, but it is getting too late for me and it's only 9.40!