Would anyone be interested in calmly discussing this Times articles with me please?

[Sycamoretree]

Article from Times 2 today.

here

Have read with interest as DH is currently SAHD due to redunancy over a year ago, so my youngest, (DS) has only been cared for at home with a parent. He is 20 months old.

My DD is at pre-school and starts reception in Sept. She had a nanny for the first couple of years until DH got made redundant.

DH is trying hard to get back into full time work and nursery was/is something we are considering. We certainly could no longer afford a nanny for one on one childcare.

I'm particularly interested in anyone who can confidently refute this quote from Steve Biddulph:

"quality nursery care for young children doesn't exist. It is a fantasy of the glossy magazines."

On the one hand I am furious that such an article gets printed as so many of us are between a rock and hard place when it comes to just surviving, and nurseries are often the only solution.

On the other hand, if any of this is actually true, then as a society, we need to start having this debate/conversation - surely?

Hi All

Sorry, I haven't read the whole thread but I wanted to add my thoughts here as this subject is very pertinent for me at the moment.

I read Raising Boys when I was pregnant with DS and agreed with much of what Stephen Biddulph said. SB believes that boys can thrive in the care of another close relative or, failing that, childminder care, if this is limited to about 16 hours per week.

I'm lucky that I'm in the position that I don't absolutely need to return to work but despite this and despite agreeing with Stephen Biddulph, I have decided to return to work 3 days per week when DS is one because I feel that I need that for myself.

We're trying to work it so that DH has DS for one day and then DS goes to a carefully chosen childminder for the remaining two days. As I say, I'm lucky to have a choice and I've been able to make this decision taking into account DS's personality too.

This issue is so complex and immotive and I feel quite guilty that I have decided to return to work when I don't have to (it will make a huge difference to us financially but we can survive without IYSWIM). Maybe I wouldn't feel the need to return to work part time if my Mum lived around the corner and could take care of DS from time to time so I could have a few hours to myself but that just isn't how it is.

I know many children that have been attending nursery from a very young age for more that the 'ideal' number of hours and, in the main, they are bright, happy and well adjusted.

I know that childcare in some other countries (e.g. France) tends to be considered cheaper and more accessible but I don't think there is the same flexibility that we have here in the uk for part time work and childcare places so I'm not sure I agree entirely with the Times article in the sense that since I started looking into this for myself I have been pleasantly surprised with the options available.

Sorry, a bit rambling ...long day

MS;

i don't expect anyone to agree with me...but i wonder why women have children if they know they'll have to go back to work....all that stress of finding good childcare, the stress of doing two jobs...it would be too much for me.

Great post by NorthernLurker, imo.

I think the danger of this researches (which bizarrely seem to be undertaken only in the anglo saxon world) is that they make it impossible to even think of ways of improving standards in nurseries in the UK, because the assumption is that they are so dangerous.

I like nurseries, I like a collective answer to individual needs. But then, I come from a totally different cultural environment.

I don't have strong feelings against nurseries - but when I think back I wasn't keen to use them when mine were tiny. I was lucky to have a fantastic CM. I wasn't aware of any arguments against them.

DS#2 did spend a year in one just before he started school and it was perfect for him at that point. Not sure how it would have been when they were younger.

'if nursery is so great, why don't children just go there 7 days a week?'

Actually I haven't been able to find one open 7 days a week - I could do with a rest come the weekend.

I love my children and if we didn't need to pay bills then I wouldn't go to work, but running our B&B in my mind allows us to have the best of both worlds, we get our work done in the morning and they get both parents in the afternoon. Also as sadi before DS nursery workers were also DD's so continuity of care in the nursery that I use is great.

northernlurker - quite right.

daftpunk - before feminism we wouldn't have been having these arguments, because we wouldn't have had the choice. My womb isn't going to define my life for me. 100 yrs ago it would have done. I think that's a good thing. Don't you?

I hoped this wouldn't become a working mum/stay at home mum debate.

Why do we have to get the knives out?

This was a question about the validity of the assertions that a particular type of childcare was potentially harmful to young boys specifically under 3 years.

I was hoping we could discuss it on the basic assumption that childcare was needed, not that the default position when faced with inadequate childcare options should be to revert to the age old "well, if you don't like the care you have, you should stay at home or not have children in the first place".

That's just crazy. I have a mixture of practical and personal reasons for working FT - my gripe is with the rock and hard place issue of inadequate childcare....and for that reason I find it INCREDIBLY unsisterly for folk to drag out the whole WM/SAHM debate.

That is not the point of this thread - this is about recognising how important children are to our society. About putting proper cash behind quality childcare options. It is not about copping out by saying "Oh well, you could always stay at home if you're that bothered by it".

If that's your choice, fine. If that's a luxury you can afford, fine. But what about the rest of us - we can go hang, right?

sycamore - I don't know. But it always happens.

It's sad - but the earlier part of this thread was quite interesting I think. I'm going to leave this one now because I don't think I have the energy.

Daftpunk, but its not too much for me. Why not just accept that some women are perfectly able to combine motherhood with raising their children? Surely this is not the only time you have come across people who live their lives a bit different to you? Do you always wonder so much about this?

But sycamoretree, what if it's not a luxury you can afford but feel is the best option for your child, should "proper cash" be put behind that option too?

It always happens because the choice to work outside out the home is seen as a cop out that diminishes your status as a parent - according to juuule I'm a part time carer for my child. Thanks for that I'm not actually - I'm a mother. When my children are 35 I will still be a mother.

Not trying to be tricky, but I don't think I completely understand your question Juule...

I'm talking specifically about nursery care - often the cheapest childcare option for parents...but as so many posters have testified, and as that article I linked supports, it would seem many of those kind of nurseries are woefully inadequate for our children's needs.

So I'm saying, the government should invest properly in either making it more financially viable for parents to stay at home if they would prefer, or into quality nursery care if they prefer to work.

why do men have children and go back to work?

fairymum;

working mothers don't occupy too many of my thoughts tbh... but when they do enter my head,... i feel sorry for them...feminism has knackered some women.

Sycamore, I totally agree about debating the fact that cash should be put into quality childcare.

Also, it is painfully clear from many many posts on MN that even sahp could benefit from affordable, good quality childcare on a part time basis.

But Franca i think in Italy the hours are shorter aren't they? And that's why i think we talk about it more in UK because we are talking about babies in Nurseries from 8am to 6pm. Working day in uk is very long.

anyone could confidently refute biddulph - his opinion, your opinion.

Purely based on my own experience of nurseries, I can understand that full time nursery care from baby to school age is likely to not always be best. (My dds went to a nursery part time for a few years. I'm being fairly objective based on my experiences.)

I am interested to read this new Sue Palmer book to see exactly how she backs up her assertion that life is worse for boys. I've seen an interview about it before and a lot of the people commenting were giving an opinion rather than scientific proof.

Peas, I'm sorta with you just now.

I've always thought that the working versus SAHM debate is very similar to the breast versus bottle feeding one. Both are highly emotional and both always seem to end in one party attacking the other.

it's far too easy to say 'well just don't work then' - some people have to, they HAVE to or they would go under. In which case i guess you could say 'don't have kids then.' But why should a woman that needs to work but that would still be a damn fine mother and raise a wonderful human being forfeit motherhood because she lives in one of the most expensive countries in the world?

I feel all this and huge empathy or working mums but I still firmly believe that nurseries are no place for babies - i suppose the only answer is that there IS no answer.

Oh ok Juule, I now see what you're saying and hopefully I answered that in my post.

Yes, I think equally the government should put more into extended maternity leaves etc to make that option as viable a choice. I'm not promoting working mums over SAHM - I'm saying it's incredibly sad the neither are a comfortable option for so many families.

Franca sorry x post this was for your previous post and not this one

I don't remember saying that it diminished your status as a parent, NorthernLurker. And yes you are caring directly for your child on a part-time basis. How can it be otherwise if you're not there? Just as I'm part-time carer for my children while they are in school. But if you want to take it as an insult, feel free. It wasn't meant that way.