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Original poster

Would anyone be interested in calmly discussing this Times articles with me please?

540 replies

Sycamoretree · 19/05/2009 11:15

Article from Times 2 today.

here

Have read with interest as DH is currently SAHD due to redunancy over a year ago, so my youngest, (DS) has only been cared for at home with a parent. He is 20 months old.

My DD is at pre-school and starts reception in Sept. She had a nanny for the first couple of years until DH got made redundant.

DH is trying hard to get back into full time work and nursery was/is something we are considering. We certainly could no longer afford a nanny for one on one childcare.

I'm particularly interested in anyone who can confidently refute this quote from Steve Biddulph:

"quality nursery care for young children doesn't exist. It is a fantasy of the glossy magazines."

On the one hand I am furious that such an article gets printed as so many of us are between a rock and hard place when it comes to just surviving, and nurseries are often the only solution.

On the other hand, if any of this is actually true, then as a society, we need to start having this debate/conversation - surely?

OP posts:
Are your children’s vaccines up to date?
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OrmIrian · 20/05/2009 15:34

"I think it's great that women have more equality but I hate that our generation are expected to be high-flying career women when some of us (me included) put raising our babies over our careers (or lack thereof ) and are made to feel bad for it.
"

Not to mention those who are made to feel bad for wanting a career I don't think anyone 'expects' you to do anything. I personally would love people to come out with the sort of judgemental comments that people in RL wouldn't dare make, that I read on MN all the time.

OrmIrian · 20/05/2009 15:35

would love people to stop coming out with, I meant to say.

BonsoirAnna · 20/05/2009 15:38

IME people RL judge women for their careers, non-careers, childrearing, housekeeping etc constantly!

bunnyrabbit · 20/05/2009 15:39

BunnyL, agree with BA on this. If you can make it work, then take the time out. Don't feel pressured. Go with your instincts.

BR

OrmIrian · 20/05/2009 15:39

Without a doubt anna, but in RL none of them have ever voiced them to me! Well apart from an elderly neighbour but she was elderly and a touch senile so I forgave her

BunnyLebowski · 20/05/2009 15:41

Fair enough Orm, I actually do think it's unfair both ways.

I in no way meant to offend women who have successful careers....just got carried away scribbling about my own situation.

Anna - You're right and in a few years I'm hoping to go back to uni to finish the Nursing degree I started.

bloss · 20/05/2009 15:45

Message withdrawn

BonsoirAnna · 20/05/2009 15:45

I only have to step out of my front door for people to start voicing their opinions! Some of my neighbours think it's their duty! And let's not get started about visiting doctors etc who think that you are paying them to critique your parenting skills.

Of course, I have learnt to let it go completely over my head. But it literally happens every day...

stillstanding · 20/05/2009 15:48

I never really understand why people say - as a pro to nurseries - that their children cried when they left or that ... What bearing does that have? Sure, it shows that they formed attachments which is good but it bears no relation to their development or how good it was for them.

Kewcumber · 20/05/2009 15:48

KathyBrown - my grandmother lost a child to whooping cough over 90 years ago and mourns him to this day and plans to be buried with him. I think she would take your assesment of his disposability because he was one of many very badly indeed.

The vast majority of women love their children whether they hate the father or not, whether he is a fuckwit of the highest order or the Highest Lord in the land. And always have.

Kewcumber · 20/05/2009 15:52

"high flying career woman" yuk - hate that phrase especially if its accompanied by a slightly curled lip as if it were somehow something not terribly nice.

Where are all the high flying career men.

Why do we feel the need label women and put them into such precise boxes in a way we don't men?

BigBellasBeerBelly · 20/05/2009 15:52

BunnyL i agree if you can afford it and it's what you want then take the time out.

And, even at the moment, there are other jobs out there. Tart your CV up and keep your eyes peeled for something which offers the hours that you want to do and you never know you might end up with a career rather than a job.

I didn't go back to my old employer as they wanted 4 days, i got another admin job 3 days a week with a paycut, but they promoted me and now are going to train me up to do a "proper" job with real transferrable skills.

Don't feel your old employer is your only option

And of course if you want to stay at home, and can afford it, then stay at home! Don't forget you may well get tax credits etc once your mat leave finishes.

Nancy66 · 20/05/2009 15:53

stillstanding - I agree. Or people insisting that it's good for six month old babies to socialise!

BonsoirAnna · 20/05/2009 15:54

high flying career woman vs. Alpha Male?

hackneybird · 20/05/2009 16:00

Hi Moatcleaner sorry I miised your msg last night. I'm on the Stokey/Stamfoed Hill border and usually travel into the West End, I use the overland from Stokey Train Station, then connect with the tube. Or I bus it to Fins Park then get the tube.

x

BonsoirAnna · 20/05/2009 16:02

IME children don't really socialise until they are four. When they are three they play alongside one another, but not until they are four do they really have friends and long games together.

Original poster
Sycamoretree · 20/05/2009 16:57

I don't think Alpha Male is remotely comparable to high flying career woman.

An unemployed brickie can be an Alpha male...

OP posts:
Original poster
Sycamoretree · 20/05/2009 16:58

Similarly, hugely successful career men can display decidedly beta male characteristics.

OP posts:
MarshaBrady · 20/05/2009 17:05

In general there are worse stereotypes of women after having children than men.

A career woman can be seen as selfish, too driven, ambitious and hard. The sahm dependent and pointless.

Of course I don't agree with either, but men can look good if they work hard and are good 'providers' or are very involved in their children's lives.

The best thing to do is to ignore any sort of societal pressure and try and build your own version of a happy and fulfilling life.

hellywobs · 20/05/2009 17:12

As with everything, there are good and bad nurseries, good and bad childminders and good and bad nannies. Ultimately, you have to go with your gut feel - is this someone I trust to look after my child? There are pros and cons of all the options. Personally, I can't see why so many people seem to think the ideal is mum at home 24 hours a day and dad never seeing the kids and working 12 hour days. Not that this article said that.

My ideal? Both parents to work part-time and child to spend maybe a day or so a week in childcare so they get to see other kids and parents can earn money to pay for mortgage. I am lucky enough, since my son went to school, to have a childminder part-time, my dh does 2 pick-ups a week and I do the rest. But it is not an option for everyone.

It's no good beating parents up about their choices, we do what's best for our families and circumstances. Utopia doesn't exist.

And lets face it, they don't seem to have all this angst about nurseries in France or Denmark or Sweden - their kids seem to turn out just fine.

blueshoes · 20/05/2009 17:14

Agree with kew about the slightly derogatory tone of term 'high flying career woman'. Seems to me only a person who does not fit in that box would use it.

hellywobs · 20/05/2009 17:20

Children socialise from about a year old. They enjoy each other's company - you only have to watch them. And look at where they are looking when you are out shopping - at other children. They notice other little people and they are fascinated - they certainly need lots of interaction with other chldren well before 3 or 4. My son had friends from about 18 months old. Maybe they didn't interact as older kids do but they certainly enjoy contact with other kids, and lots of it.

blueshoes · 20/05/2009 17:26

On babies and socialising, having used fulltime nursery for my dcs from around the one year mark, I would emphatically agree that babies don't need socialising with peers.

I appreciate this depends on the child, but my experience is that my dcs began to enjoy the buzz and activity of other children after they turned one. My ds at 2 and a half has a 'gang' at nursery he always plays with - confirmed by the carers and the parents of the other children. Ds tells me what his friends get up to - ok, basic stuff like flashing lights on shoes! Really cute to observe my still socially primitive child making human connections outside of my influence.

Also share OrmIrian's view of not looking for carers to love my child. I don't expect nursery to recreate home life. It is just a fun and stimulating place for young children to be in that adds to the richness of their experience. Carers are not substitute parents, heavens no. Funnily enough, they get their parenting from me and dh.

blueshoes · 20/05/2009 17:27

snap, helly!

pointydog · 20/05/2009 17:28

what is biddulph's agenda? And why does he have it?