Would anyone be interested in calmly discussing this Times articles with me please?

[Sycamoretree]

Article from Times 2 today.

here

Have read with interest as DH is currently SAHD due to redunancy over a year ago, so my youngest, (DS) has only been cared for at home with a parent. He is 20 months old.

My DD is at pre-school and starts reception in Sept. She had a nanny for the first couple of years until DH got made redundant.

DH is trying hard to get back into full time work and nursery was/is something we are considering. We certainly could no longer afford a nanny for one on one childcare.

I'm particularly interested in anyone who can confidently refute this quote from Steve Biddulph:

"quality nursery care for young children doesn't exist. It is a fantasy of the glossy magazines."

On the one hand I am furious that such an article gets printed as so many of us are between a rock and hard place when it comes to just surviving, and nurseries are often the only solution.

On the other hand, if any of this is actually true, then as a society, we need to start having this debate/conversation - surely?

This is such an emotive subject but I think it's an important one.

I actually think the article is well written and balanced.

I have so much sympathy for mothers who simply have to return to work, there is no option they HAVE to work. Nannies are expensive and, for many, nurseries are the only real choice. But at what cost to the child?

I have friends whose kids are in nurseries five days a week for nine hours a day - one from just 10 weeks old. She insists he's happy and it teaches him to be sociable. Ten week old babies don't need to be sociable - they need their mothers.

I don't want to upset anybody but I don't think refusing to accept that some childcare does not benefit the child helps anybody.

Grrrrr.

Ok i can understand the comment of less 121 attention, that much is obvious - it would be the same in large families no doubt and in a childminder situation.

But i have to defend nurseries, my DD (now 2 1/2) has been at nursery since she was 6 months old. When i started looking at the childcare options it broke me heart to think of leaving her behind and grudgingly went along to view some nurseries with a friend who was looking at the time. I fell in love with how this nursery felt, the staff truly cared, they are all highly trained in first aid (far more than i or DH are!) in educational needs of different age groups and what's more the children learn social skills which prepare them for school. My Dd is a confident, happy and polite toddler, sure she has her moments but she has developed so well so far, speaking well, signing (they were happy to carry out signing when i was teaching her) and toilet training.

She always talks about what they get up to in nursery, and there are 2 favourite nursery girls who have played a big part in DD's life so far, she is confident with them and will often want to try new things with them (new foods or new puzzles etc) showing how she has built up trust with certain members of the staff team.

They offer regular parent-evening sessions where you can spend a long time chatting to the staff on a 121 basis and discuss anything positive or negative. you get to see how they chart development on all levels and how they have planned for a structured day with each individual child. I feel fully involved and able to ask anything off the staff, they are all understanding of our needs and believe in parent led childcare - thus we are involved on a high level.

I think learning from peers is a huge part of growing up and developing and providing you find a good nursery this can be a wonderful asset to their young lives.

I agree that if nurseries are not providing good, up to date child care and development strategies then this should be looked at, we as working parents should have a right to demand excellent childcare no matter where it comes from.

i hate sweeping statements and although i have no idea about how bad/good other nurseries are i do not believe that you can generalise them or pidgeon hole them, i wouldn't change ours for the world and nor would DD i am sure.

Sorry the 'grrrr' was to the article not to you nancy i was still writing when you posted!

I totally agree that parent care is and should be a priority and number 1 choice. but as you say if you have no choice you need to do your homework and choose the option suitable to you and your LO.

Stating that nurseries are all the same and no quality ones exist (ok the writer doesn't state this but refers to another article that does) is very dangerous indeed.

Well my 2 went nursery 3 days a week and had fantastic, very experienced carers. However, I think care varies enormously between nurseries, as indeed with nannies and childminders. And parents.

The last Nursery DD was at was fantastic.

The owner had her 2 children there too. She had bought the nursery when the previous owner decided she was too ill to continue and said she was closing.

DD loved it and would talk about the staff and ask to see them (she is 2). In fact I had trouble getting her to come home some days.

(I would agree that 10 weeks old is a bit young for nursery though)

She really misses it now that I have been made redundant and we have moved.

There are good ones out there.

"I am furious that such an article gets printed"

Why shoot the messenger?

he's right....nurseries are a business...they are interested in your money 1st and your child 2nd...if they're interested in your child at all...which i doubt.

DP, the owners may feel like that, but the poorly paid nursery staff clearly aren't doing it for the money. And they are the ones looking after your children.

I have known and worked with many fantastic nursery staff who go way further than the extra mile, and find that comment offensive.

Its sad isn't it that all 'nurseries' get tarred with the same brush. As HC says, there are some good ones out there. I had to go back to work when ds was 6mo - luckily I only had to go 3 dpw to start with. However, he soon was reaching out to the nursery nurse who was his main carer in the baby room, and still talks of some of the girls in the oldest room he was in.

I also found that nursery was good for me in that I had a few days for 'me' at work which meant that I was much more likely to have positive time with ds on my days 'off' and at weekends.

Sycamore, my advice is to think very carefully on choosing a nursery and find one that has the right 'feel' for you - and asking about staff turnover is also helpful - a low staff turnover probably means a happy staff who want to stay and therefore want to have positive time with their charges. Its also less disruptive for the children.

You see I would love to have reasoned debate about a well written article about this subject, then I get to

"But, as they milled about, bumping into each other, they were learning nothing but bewilderment and confusion. "

and think oh well, yet another badly-written load of bollocks....

And some mothers do this in the park too don't they! No interaction, phone to ear or busy texting...

The article does rely on mother's (or father's, or grandmothers etc) parenting being positive...

I am sure there are many brilliant nurseries out there but I was utterly utterly horrified by the Leapfrog one my daughter attended briefly. I was genuinely shocked that anyone could leave their small child in such an environment all day every day.

bigtillymint;

i'm sure there are some highly committed nursery staff...but i think the majority of young girls working in them are there because they're too thick to work anywhere else......i'm sure they go through the motions...singing, getting the puzzles out, smiling now and then...but their heart isn't in it.

Sorry - have been away from computer - thanks to all for posting.

To answer Anna: I don't mean to shoot the messenger - my OP wasn't brilliantly worded. What I mean is, I'm cross in that (not entirely logical) way that one gets when emotional issues are prodded at that I feel a bit helpless to resolved to my absolute satisfaction.

I suppose I'm in despair that we're in a society where such an article has to be printed, and yet, how are us parents with nurseries as our only viable option, actually supposed to react, apart from with Anger or handwringing guilt and anxiety?

I linked the article as I also felt it was largely quite well balanced, but as always, when someone puts in their own anecdotal bits of evidence, as HUWEDWARDS points out, it becomes irritating and inflammatory and the tone feels accusatory. It basically says those parents are allowing their children to be treated no better, in fact worse, than dogs.

Right - so all of us with children in nurseries (not me yet, but possibly me soon) should do WHAT precisely?

Not agreeing with the premise of an article doesn't make it badly written.

DP - that's what I said originally - you have to find a good nursery. Unfortunately aome (particularly NOT those used by MC families, but by families on some sort of benefits ) are staffed by girls who aren't particularly talented or suited to the job. That's why nurseries get a bad name, but they are not all like that - there are some good ones around.

Support the good ones and complain to offstead about problems that come to light in others?

I agree with nancy- sadly our (still) over inflated housing market usually means that parents who would like to spend these important early years with their children have to go to work.

It's a shame, and along way off an ideal way to bring children up

It is a message people don't want to hear but surely its important that the current status quo in our society (being babies/toddlers unquestioningly put into nurseries and both parents go straight back to work) is at least thought about.

Rather like the documentary on last night about working women where the presenter challenged a professer on his 18 year study on childcare because it didnt endorse her personal choices .

Sycamore - 'I'm cross in that (not entirely logical) way that one gets when emotional issues are prodded at that I feel a bit helpless to resolved to my absolute satisfaction' - that's very well put and I can definitely relate to it.

I also agree that this is a conversation that needs to be had. I'm happy to believe that there are nurseries out there where children are really loved and cared for, but I suspect that in the main they are expensive, and that places might be hard to come by.

You, as an individual, need to identify a nursery that's like this. Be prepared to look at lots.

As a society, we need to value childcare workers (and, indeed, full-time parents IMO) much more highly than we do at the moment. Make 'nursery worker' a post with a rigorous qualification process, a good salary and lots of job satisfaction and status.

I think the problem with nurseries is that it's the good ones that appear to be in the minority.

How many people look at several nurseries before finding one which they consider to be lovely? And how many parents don't have the choice as to which nursery to put their children into, because finance dictates that they have to pick the cheapest one regardless of whether it's good or bad?

Rather than slating those who dare to point out that childcare in this country is substandard, should we not be seeking to A, change the regulations around childcare to ensure that the standards are higher, so that even those nurseries/childminders adhering to only the minimum standards are still providing a high level of care. And B, be making better provision so that those mothers who would prefer not to work, are able to do so, and are not forced to put their children into substandard nurseries.

And this is not comparible with bad parents. Bad parents are accountable for the treatment of their children, one, two, maybe a few more children, not millions and millions of children who go through the nurseries/childminders of this country every year.

pw;

most nurseries are private so that will never happen....they want maximum profit.

daftpunk - beig concerned to make a profit does not mean they don;t care for the cvhildren properly. Good nurseries thrive and are profitable becasue they care for their chrges well.

I would be an idiotic finance director in my industry if I said all I was interested in was profit and who cares about the clients...

lol kewcumber...most profitable companies couldn't give a toss about their employees.

Sycamore - I don't know what the answer is and i have nothing but sympathy for those that are faced with having to choose.

There are some fantastic nurseries I am sure - i don't believe they are suitable places for babies though.