Am furious at nursery, am going to kick their ass this afternoon!

[leglebegle]

My ds1 is sort of potty trained but still has loads of accidents. Its not going well at all and My health visitor says its all to do with our new baby. ds1 goes to nursery 3 days a week and every time I am given 3 changes of sopping wet clothes back at the end of the day. I couldn't understand why it was going so badly and why we started so well at home and then it deteriorated into him not even wanting to sit on the potty at all. 3 things happened so far this week which have shown me what is going on and I am so shocked. Monday - I'm told that ds1 and another boy won't go in the designated toilet breaks (both have only just learned to use potty) and they are just 'lazy' as they lose control of their bladders later. Tuesday I arrive and tell them ds1 has just said he needs to do a poo. He's waved to the bathroom on his own and told 'you know what to do'. Well, actually he doesn't! He struggles with his buttons on his jeans, he can't sit on the big loo yet by himself as he's a bit scared in case he falls in, at home we have one of those seats you put over the loo to make it smaller. I was shocked to realise they were going to leave him by himself when he clearly can't do it. Then last straw was last night when I went to pick him up only to find him soaking wet and upset. I'm told he'd said he needed to go the loo, was sent in by himself, he couldn't pull his jeans off, in the end had pulled them down with the buttons still done up he was that desperate and had tried his best to sit on the loo but couldn't balance and had 'misfired' and soaked his jeans. I am furious and so is dh (who is usually the voice of reason). He is so clearly not potty trained, he needs to be helped! I am going in this afternoon to have this out with them. What would you say?

re. bottom wiping - at our nursery they wipe bottoms and will also put sudocrem on sore bits in potty trained children without any fuss. didn't realise this could be a child protection issue (ffs, world going mad)

Just to update, I went in this morning and was very calm. I thought that at the end of the day my ds1 is happy there and would be really upset if we left the nursery as he has made friends and likes the staff etc, so there was no point going in and going ballistic as I am going to be seeing them every week for another year and a half.... The manager was really nice, but did confirm that they have the toilet breaks and other times are encouraged to go by themselves. Its not quite as bleak as I thought yesterday, they are watched from the door, just no-one is physically holding them on there. They have potties and one toilet has a mini seat attached but she took my point that ds1 will copy the others and just go on whatever toilet is next to his friend rather than go on a potty and he can't hold on properly yet. Basically she has agreed that until I am happy he is properly potty trained and able to use a mini loo, he will be supervised and helped. But the surprising thing was that she told me he is coping really well at nursery and never wets himself (or very rarely) like he does at home, and the accidents he has are just misfires as he stands up sometimes as well. So I feel a bit reassured but still slightly concerned that they don't have someone permanently on toilet duty. I don't know how I feel about it, is it unrealistic to expect this?? I don't feel they are abusing him, he is really happy there apart from this, and my instinct tells me they are a great nursery and and on the ball about lots of other stuff. I just don't understand why they encourage them to be so independent at such a young age. What's the big deal if they wee by themselves at age 3-4 or not? I saw loads of nurseries and they were the best by far. He has really thrived there and has friends and I would be loathe to take him out and put him somewhere else. Nightmare!

my ds ( 4)geos alone always has done at that nirsery ( well int hat room fro 3 year olds up)

I bet they'll look out for him a bit now after your talk

In our playgroup every child they are encouraged to have the proper toilet breaks (four times during morning session) but can go whenever and as soon as they need to - never told to wait or hang on - we all know bad habits can be formed by hanging on. They inform a member or staff who then takes them straight there, helps them as much or as little as they need and supervises hand washing afterwards. Many of the parent helpers (rota basis) are CRB checked so they can also supervise.
I strongly disagree with the policy to encourage chidlren to use pre determined toilet breaks at this age. Some can manage it and can help them learn to go before they are desperate but I believe it causes more problems than it can solve. I bet most of the time this policy used by playgroups and nurseries alike is just in place to make it easier for the staff and they use the line about helping children to learn to control themselves as an excuse rather than a real justification. When I worked in a secondary school, sure, we encouraged all children to go at break time or between lessons but it was school policy to never refuse/try to delay a child when they ask and few took advantage as it is never that cool to ask to go to the toilet as a teenager. Lets face it - I bet loads of unions would be up in arms if a workplace actively tried to encourage staff to hold on till designated breaks!
I understand that you would like to work with your nursery and keep your son there, but if my child constantly came home miserable and wet, I would not be happy with the misfiring argument. If they knew that this was a regular occurance, why on earth have they continued to just stand in the door and let him continue to do this? Surely common sense and plain humanity would have led them to realise he needed a little extra support and to help encourage him to use the appropriate toilet/potty without you having to mention it first? I know you are probably wanting to have this resolved easily and quickly so that you feel happy that they are doing the right thing and that your DS is content without moving him, just be careful that you are really deep down happy and convinced with their explanation. This would make me want to question all of their procedures and amount of care to convince myself that this is not indicative of lack of real care. What do other mums say about the nursery?
I remember a tv programme about childcare and how one woman had been totally unaware of what had gone on in her child?s nursery. She said something about being amazed because her child always ran into her arms and seemed so happy to see her - never dawned on her that maybe it was sheer relief and excitement that it was home time. Not scaremongering or doing the nursery vs. playgroup thing as both need careful watching as they are entrusted to caring for our most precious bundles and always better to err on the side of caution.

legle
Glad you're feeling a bit better about this. It sounds very similar to my kids nursery in that they have designated times where they all go to the loo together (and this carries on from regular nappy changing times when they are younger) but the children can go at any time. BUT they are always asked if they can manage on their own or do they want someone to go - the loos are just by the room.

They do encourage independence which I think is a good thing and it is sometimes hard to reconcile they way they are at nursrey and home. M ds was toilet trained at nursery way before he was at home (where it coincided with dd's arrival). We had a nightmare at home and was very very difficult. I too was amazed to see him at nursery basically managing it really well - he went unsupervised and only had one accident. Agree with whoever suggested jogging bottoms - perfect for getting them up and down in a trice!

Bathmummy - very interesting comments, I totally know where you are coming from and it is true that I want it to be resolved for an easy life I guess. He isn't miserable, in fact we went through a stage where he wouldn't come home he was having such a good time (which wasn't at all humiliating for me standing there trying to coax him to come with me in front of all the other parents) he's just miserable when he has to have all his clothes taken off as its his pet hate. I agree I have to monitor it really carefully. I'm definitly not that happy about the lack of supervision when they go by themselves and would have been much happier if they had asked the children if they felt happier going with or without a supervisor, but my biggest niggle is that they should have known he can't really go by himself. But I'm also aware that he is different in nursery when he's at home and I might not be getting the true picture of how independent he can or wants to be. He eats well there, plays well, never has tantrums, and goes to the loo when he's asked to whereas at home, well, not the same at all! I don't want to be one of those parents who goes in on the bounce about everything as I do trust the nursery in many respects and I like the staff, which I guess helps me. I just have to monitor it really carefully, but at least they know I am IYKWIM.
Puddle - I am having the same experience for sure with mine. ds2 is now 7 months old and interacting more with us, so ds1 is a bit miffed, and definitely playing up more for attention. Mummy getting cross over lots of wees takes time away from the baby, so its become a bit of a game. I know for sure he does not do this at nursery!

What about the children washing their hands after going to the toilet?

Is that supervised?

Leglebegle - I second your comment about children doing things in nursery that they won't do at home. My DS1 was like this with eating. I think when they all sit around together and do it en masse the herd instinct kicks in and they just conform. He was a pain in the * at mealtimes at home.

RTKM - I have no idea about hand washing but would presume not. But then again, he comes home and asks to wash his hands when he's been on the potty so I guess he's doing it there, and I would assume not of his own volition, so they must be showing him? I should have asked them that. I also wondered about wiping his bottom after poos, but he only goes 3 days a week and there have been less than 5 occasions when he hasn't done one before he goes. I don't get him there until 9.30am and he does one first thing in the morning when he gets up so its rare they have to deal with that with him. I should have raised it though as its another good point.

I work in a nursery. We do have tiolet breaks but the children are allowed to go at other times. We do encorage the children to go by themselves if they are able to but always help them if they need it. We have a toilet day rota so there is always a member of staff available to help the children.