Is this normal for a nursery?

[Tazema]

Hi

We have been having settling in sessions at a nursery for our one year old. She will be attending 4 days a week.

I have concerns and have spoken to other friends who have children in nurseries near me and it makes me more concerned. The waiting lists for getting babies into nurseries around here is really long so any moving DD somewhere else is a long term plan.

When I dropped her off at 8am (opening time) it was busy and you take your child right into the nursery room where the child will stay. I found there was only two nursery staff at hand and babies were crawling around your feet and could easily be stood on and what concerns me more is one could be picked up and taken and no one would notice. As well as that the shoes of parents dropping off were muddy and when I picked DC up later that day she had mud on her hands and clothes from this.

The staffing ratio I don’t think is right either, I counted 6 children and one member of staff, another member of staff at the other side of the room with more children and apparently there were more children napping in the sleep section and no one checked on them in the time I was there picking up DC and was being informed about how she did and signing forms which was about 10minutes.

The staff are lovely and I don’t think there is any malice or deliberate neglect from the staff but more a managerial concern with regards to safeguarding and staffing allocation and ensuring children are accounted for.

What I want to know is if this is normal and this is just what nurseries can be like? If anyone found anything similar or how to deal with it. I’m worried me complaining or mentioning it could mean DD is treated differently. This is our first child so I know I’m more of edge but it is just not sitting right this feeling I have.

Would love to hear peoples experiences

TIA

Call ofsted and ask them to do
emervency inspection at this time
of day

OP didn’t say she would become homeless 😏just that’s she’s considering it but it would be financially difficult (which I’m reading as “not impossible”). So yeah, I would rather cut back on things than leave my baby somewhere unsafe.

I had issues aboit cleanliness for the exact same reason. I brought it up with the manager and she brought in a no shoes policy in baby room.
We did still leave thr nursery for other reasons but I would still recommend you speak to them while you're waiting for somewhere ekse. Or is a childminder an option?

But if you drop the kids at the door, you won’t know how many kids there are as they will sometimes be in another room.

My second childminder definitely used to break rules with ratio by having primary school kids over with wraparound care as well as little toddlers. And just plonked them all in front of cbeebies while she went on fb.

Childminders can have 6 Under 8s. (And over 8s don't count for ratio).

Childminders can have primary age and toddlers! I can have 10 children in total.

We can get into the foyer to the baby room and then ring the bell and staff come do handover. In the older rooms you can get straight into the rooms but a key person usually meets you at the doorway for a handover. I don’t think they’d be weird if you walked in but they’d quickly come to greet you I expect and we usually all queue in orderly fashion by the door of our room to do handovers per child. You couldn’t drop a child off and disappear unnoticed easily, not unless you left them in the corridor, his and told them to walk in without you.

The ratio is never more than 6 under 8 but insurance usually allows a further 4 over 8s ....the normal ratio for under 8s is 3 under 5, 3 over 5 but under 8....however there are reasons to self vary the unnder 8 ratio ......the wrap around may well be within ratio....all my parents know each other, meet at the door, do play dates and can come in if they need to settle baby. All the children happily tell other parents who's inside.

Is there anyway you could reduce hours ? Is there anyone else available for childcare for a day or two until she’s old enough. Most nurseries are terrible for under 3s. It sounds like you’re in London or a busy city so people are so desperate for places that safeguarding and wellbeing is overlooked. I used to pick up my DC a lot earlier than others so around 3 and I always peeked into the baby rooms from window and it made me even more certain I wouldn’t be putting baby in there.

I appreciate not everyone has the option for that.

I didn’t sent my DC till they were 3 and even then I peeled my DC off the carpet once, with a temp of 39 at pick up. No staff had even noticed, they thought he was having a lie down.

What were the reasons you didn’t use nursery? I have heard so many nursery staff expressed the same sentiment that despite working in a nursery they would never choose to send their own children there.

Why are there so many people on Mumsnet who can't master basic reading? I didn't say childminders are better - I just said what the OP specifically described in her post (i.e., the risk of random people coming in to where the babies are, a communal area where 30 parents can drag in mud where babies are crawling) would not happen there. She said there were no nurseries available, so that's an obvious next step.

For me, similar reasons to the OP - inconsistent care, too many adults involved some you don't know or don't meet, dirty room & toys, staff are often bored senseless stuck in one room all day. Mine did go to part time to preschool at 3 though.

The truth is, nursery as a concept is bad for children under 3. So if you are going to send them to one, it’s important to at least make sure it’s a decent one.

It’s not bad for under 3’s, there’s no benefit in nursery for under 3’s. That’s not the same thing at all.

There is evidence that they are detrimental to very young children due to cortisol spikes. The older the child, the less harmful it becomes so it would be a lot more detrimental to a 9 months old than a 2.5 y old. In any case it is definitely more beneficial for them to be looked after by a parent (or another family member) before 3 (unless we are talking about dysfunctional families then it’s better for them to be in nursery).

I’d love to see your peer reviewed sources as everything credible I have seen says it is about a consistent care giver and actually it doesn't matter who that is. Nurseries with chaotic staffing can be damaging, but it makes no difference if the caregiver is male, female, parent or not as long as it is consistent so there is a bond.

Good nurseries don’t add any benefit to under 3’s but there is absolutely no evidence that they do harm. Shit nurseries are no worse than shit childminders or shit parenting- or being passed from pillar to post within a family to be looked after by anyone free.

Attachment theory just requires secure attachment to a competent person. It doesn’t matter that much who it is (excluding newborns).

Here's a pretty good summary of the evidence. He links sources so you can see the actual studies if you're interested https://criticalscience.medium.com/on-the-science-of-daycare-4d1ab4c2efb4

But most studies show nurseries are damaging under age 3

I have not gone through all the references in the article linked above, but it is worth noting that many of them are from studies done in the US, where ratios are often much higher (https://worldpopulationreview.com/state-rankings/child-care-ratio-by-state. I'm not sure it's 100% up to date – but not all the studies were done yesterday, either).

In some states, one person could care for 6 or 7 children under 1 (commonly 4 or 5), or 7-9 one-year-olds (commonly 5 or 6). That's going to be significantly different care and caregiver bonding compared with a 1:3 ratio. (The author does note that ratio is important, but quite reasonably doesn't discuss what that might mean for places with quite different rules.)

My mind boggles at the idea of trying to look after 9 one-year-olds or 6 babies...

Yes but as can be seen in this thread for example, the ratios don’t quite work as one person really focusing on 3 kids as someone will always be doing nappies, setting up lunch, doing handover etc.

Absolutely, but those things also have to happen in places with higher ratios to start with, so I think it's still something one needs to consider when looking at study results.

Pretty much like one parent with three kids who will also be doing other things like housework so even less attention then.

not normal

Pre covid, we used to drop my eldest into nursery. We had to be buzzed into nursery, where we would go to the room, sign in, hand over to an adult and then leave. Likewise, in the afternoon, we were buzzed into the rooms to sign out and take our kids home.
However, since 2021, parents wait in the playground and the nursery workers collect and return the children. It works really really well.
Even when we were allowed in, children were never crawling around. Parents stayed in the corridor, shoes were removed etc. Adults/workers all wear slippers.

Ratios are really strict - if you have concerns, speak to the owner. They must abide by them to stay open.

My son went to nursery in a baby room before covid. We were allowed to take and pick up from the baby room but there were codes and staff had to then physically let you in the 2nd door. Shoe covers were required. Sometimes we'd go and collect and he'd been moved to the toddler room due to staff issues. I never liked the baby nap room, it was small and i felt they were forgotten in a corner. When covid came we removed him and kept him home until a few months later we started him with a childminder. It was so the right call for us. The childminders took him for regular days out to parks, attractions, strawberry picking, libraries, shopping for fruit to make smoothies and all the normal activities. It was home from home. Listen to your gut.

Not normal and I’d be concerned too. Not sure on the ratios without googling but alone the point you raised going into drop the child off and no one noticing if one was picked up is worrying, I drop my little one at the door, no one’s allowed in, only at pick up where you buzz to get let in and it’s 1on1 with the key person for my child and my child. Plus the mud on the floor, that’s so unhygienic