Is this normal for a nursery?

[Tazema]

Hi

We have been having settling in sessions at a nursery for our one year old. She will be attending 4 days a week.

I have concerns and have spoken to other friends who have children in nurseries near me and it makes me more concerned. The waiting lists for getting babies into nurseries around here is really long so any moving DD somewhere else is a long term plan.

When I dropped her off at 8am (opening time) it was busy and you take your child right into the nursery room where the child will stay. I found there was only two nursery staff at hand and babies were crawling around your feet and could easily be stood on and what concerns me more is one could be picked up and taken and no one would notice. As well as that the shoes of parents dropping off were muddy and when I picked DC up later that day she had mud on her hands and clothes from this.

The staffing ratio I don’t think is right either, I counted 6 children and one member of staff, another member of staff at the other side of the room with more children and apparently there were more children napping in the sleep section and no one checked on them in the time I was there picking up DC and was being informed about how she did and signing forms which was about 10minutes.

The staff are lovely and I don’t think there is any malice or deliberate neglect from the staff but more a managerial concern with regards to safeguarding and staffing allocation and ensuring children are accounted for.

What I want to know is if this is normal and this is just what nurseries can be like? If anyone found anything similar or how to deal with it. I’m worried me complaining or mentioning it could mean DD is treated differently. This is our first child so I know I’m more of edge but it is just not sitting right this feeling I have.

Would love to hear peoples experiences

TIA

At my childrens’ nursery you could go into the rooms to collect your child but we had to get buzzed in via the front gate by a nursery teacher and then let in again by the manager at the front desk. So there’s no chance of an unfamiliar parent getting past. Then we’d go collect and you normally have a brief handover from their key worker or who’s been looking after them that day if the key worker is off. I found the handover got a bit briefer as they get older. When they were under 2 and in the baby room no outdoor shoes were allowed in there to keep the floors clean for the babies. Nursery staff wore socks in there and parents were expected to take their shoes off before entering. Staff ratios can be hard to judge just off the brief time you’re in there as someone could be off making feeds, or doing nappy changes so it’s not always easy to tell whos actually in the baby room that day. I’d just ask if you’re unsure. But ultimately if you’re getting bad feelings about the nursery and the vibe is off then maybe it’s best to look to move your child when you can as you’ll know if a setting feels right for them

I hear you concerns and it could be something or nothing.
With my first child the nursery had a terrible time with staffing and ratios and for a time had to rely on agency staff. There were times that I dropped off and they certainly weren't in ratio. On these occasions I stayed until they were. I didn't take any nonsense about the manager and cleaner forming the ratios as they weren't present 🙄 on every occasion I sent a formal complaint and demanded a discount. They soon sorted it.
They used to allow parents into the building (via buzzer) and to knock on the rooms door and you got to see them playing and what was happening in the room. They brought them out to the cloakroom to give feedback.
During/after COVID they brought them to the main door which meant you never got to see what was happening in the room which I liked even less especially as my youngest hated it and was frequently distressed. The ability to see him play might have put my mind at ease.
After a few years they eased up and it was passcode gate entry then fob entry at the main door, then knock on the room door.
With the new management they wouldn't allow your child in if they were out of ratio which was a pain waiting in the rain with them and being late for work but at least they were honest.

I wouldn’t be happy about the code for access, that isn’t secure enough. Schools have restricted access for the same reason, so nobody can go past the reception area without permission. Can you contact Ofsted to report a safeguarding concern?

I think it’s perfectly reasonable for you to raise the issue of mud on the floor. All the nurseries I’ve visited have a shoes off or shoe covers rule in the baby room. You could put it as your concern that your DD could be putting dirt from shoes in her mouth (even dog dirt is possible…)

I'd be wary of alleging that they don’t have enough staff, but you could ask for clarification about their ratios (or sneakily write something like "I know you have to have a ratio of 1:3 for the babies but it must still be very hard for staff to always prevent the babies putting bits of dirt in their mouths, or to make sure someone keeps an eye on all adults entering the room", just to let them know you know the rules).

Many years ago when mine went the baby room had a no entry policy. There was a baby gate over the door and you handed baby to member of staff as no outdoor shoes were allowed in the room and staff were in cushion socks with shoes outside the door

Sounds really odd that the parents can access the nursery without the staff being aware of that…you know you can use a childminder for the government hrs and move the child when is 3 (nursery have a small number for babies as the ratio should be 1:3 but over 3 is 1:8 or 13 depends on qualifications and usually have much more spaces available for this age)

In England, day nursery staff-to-child ratios are legally set by the Early Years Foundation Stage (EYFS) framework and are 1 adult for every 3 children under 2, 1 adult for every 5 children aged 2, and 1 adult for every 8 children aged 3 and over. These ratios are minimum legal requirements, and many providers exceed them to offer higher quality care and build stronger relationships with children.

In Scotland, day nursery adult-to-child ratios are: one adult for every three children aged 0 to under 2; one adult for every five children aged 2 to under 3; and one adult for every eight children aged 3 to under 8. For children aged 3 and over attending for fewer than four hours per day, the ratio can be one adult for every ten children.

In Wales, day nurseries must adhere to the National Minimum Standards for Regulated Childcare, which set the following minimum staff-to-child ratios: one adult to three children under two years old; one adult to four children aged two years; and one adult to eight children aged three to seven years. These are legal requirements to ensure child safety and must be followed by all early years settings.

In Ireland, day nursery staff-to-child ratios are set by regulations and depend on the children's age: 1 adult for every 3 children under 1 year old, 1 adult for every 5 children aged 1 to 2 years old, 1 adult for every 6 two-year-olds, and 1 adult for every 8 children aged 3 to 6 years old.

I worked for a few weeks in a Nursery where the ratios were wrong and they had an incident and got into alot of trouble They closed down shortly after

In my opinion it not sitting right with you then thats a warning sign

Have you had a look at their ofsted report? That should have a section on safeguarding and whether they were happy with it.

I would raise it with the manager. They may be able to reassure you of their practices and they won’t “take it out” on your baby if they find it odd/annoying! They’ll be used to protective parents asking all the questions! I rang ours twice a day sometimes in the first weeks of settling because I wanted to check DS was ok!!

Code for access would be an immediate no from me. Simply not secure enough. Nursery staff meet and greet at the door for us. Having sat in during settling in sessions parents are well acquainted with the rooms, have seen the facilities and staff in action etc. I much prefer this system. This is for a small independent nursery so I appreciate larger ones may have to buzz people in but I would not be happy with ppl just coming and going without staff verification at a front desk or similar.

Would a childminder be a possibility until another place comes up at a different nursery?

Sorry if unhelpful, but have you looked into childminders in your area? My three kids went to a childminder until they were 3, when they switched to nursery. For a very young child, I much prefer the environment in the childminder setting to the nursery setting - none of what you've described would happen there.

This is absolutely not ok! None of what you’ve said would ever make me feel comfortable enough to leave my precious baby there. It’s hard enough to go back to work, even if you’re super happy and comfortable with the nursery you’ve chosen, but you’re going to be on edge worrying and it’s just not worth it. Is there anything you can do short term? Family help etc? Or delay going back to work to get them in somewhere else? It’s just not worth it in my opinion. I’d almost go as far as saying they need to be investigated!

Going back 7 years but my child’s nursery was code to enter. No official reception but the managers office on entry where someone might be. Most rooms had baby gates. Baby room was no shoes if you wanted to go in. Nursery was always on top of ratios. Pick up and drop off there were mixed ages in some
spaces to allow for clean up and someone would have a clipboard working the ratios out and calling the manager in if they weren’t right. It was taken very seriously.

Our nursery has drop off in the rooms, you just go into the doorway and the rooms are small so you can’t walk in or out without being noticed. They try to keep the kids all together away from the door during drop off and pick up times but it doesn’t always work out but they always have one eye on the door so no one is going to be walking out with a random child and I’m sure they are watching at your nursery too. You have to be buzzed in at the main entrance to get into the nursery, if they don’t recognise you then you have to give a password, each child has their own password. It’s up to the parents to remove shoes if they are dirty knowing that they are going into the room. There’s often a line of shoes in the reception area when it’s bad weather as parents take their shoes off on the way in. Those ratios don’t sound right but there were probably staff in the sleep room or a different area that you couldn’t see. Just have a conversation with the manager about it all.

Just adding my nursery experience to the others to reassure you that you’re not mad to feel uncomfortable - we had to be buzzed in by a member of staff, had to wait at the door outside the room (whether baby or toddler room, made no difference, same rule), could not have outdoor shoes in any of the rooms only the corridors leading to them. Seeing other nurseries will help you figure out what’s the best step forward but trust your gut.

I worked in a nursery so that is why I sent my children to a childminder until they were three.

However if that's not an option for you definitely raise your concerns with the manager. If nobody speaks up the situation won't change.

This is absolutely not normal. I wouldn’t be leaving my child there. My baby is 10 months old and I do not enter the nursery building for drop off or collection; unless he’s the last one, and they call me just inside the door to watch him playing and to surprise him. I’d ask to speak with the nursery manager politely and discuss your (very reasonable) concerns in person.

My older children used to attend a nursery setting where parents were let in to the building on collection, but no one entered the rooms at all, kind of open plan but divided up with chest high walls, each section would have 3-4 members of staff in, it was a great set up. If something in your tummy is unsure, find another place x

I think there is a massive shortage of nursery staff countrywide according to news reports. They’re probably running on minimum staffing levels but obviously this needs to be at the legal level, I have no idea if yours is or not. Have you thought about becoming a stay at home mum and doing childminding? This would mean you wouldn’t be dropping your baby off to strangers every day and worrying what’s going on. The early years are precious and they need their mums wherever possible

I am a current nursery practitioner. Baby room parents shoes should be taken off or shoe covers put on. There should be three babies to one adult. There should be a secure door to ensure management or a receptionist know who has come in and who is leaving. It's common practice for managers to be seated near the exit/entrance to keep an eye on all of this. The room staff should have eyes on the door as it opens and closes to know who is coming and going so noone can take a child that isn't theirs and regular head counts are good practice. Going directly into the room with the child is pretty normal, it's just at the nurseries discretion.
I would take this to Ofsted to be honest as it's a safeguarding concern.

Plenty to be concerned about here I would say but how about asking for a discussion and some clarity to start with rather than starting off by complaining. Of course you are concerned for your child, you've not been down this route before.

Email and ask to speak to the nursery manager. They’ll have no issues you doing this and would most likely welcome it to reassure you of your concerns. I did this various times when my son was little and at nursery.

One time I really wasn’t satisfied with their response after a couple of incidents. I reported them to public health England and they had to shut down for a deep clean for 2 days from memory.

I took him out as soon as I could. The manager however was great, unfortunately it had fallen into disarray long before her and I wasn’t prepared to wait for her to turn it around.

On going into the setting, different nurseries have different rules. I've done both, due to covid, and much prefer going in and seeing where my tiny children spend so much of their time. Done properly, it can work well. That said, who's in the building needs to be properly managed.

We have individual codes for the door, so they have a log of who went in and out, and at busy times like the first 30-40 minutes of the day where following someone in is more likely, there is always a member of staff with sight of the entrance keeping an eye on everyone arriving. If someone unusual picks up a child, they need to know a password that the parent has given.

Various ways to handle the shoe situation, but children should not be crawling around on a dirty floor (out in the garden is a different matter!).

Ratios are tricky because it isn't just who's in the room at that instant, but it's something I'd watch over time. Any childcare setting (including childminders or a home with more than one child) is going to have the problem that the 'effective ratio' drops when an adult has to change a nappy, sort food, etc. The question is how well the setting or individual handles it – do they use staff effectively, have routines that minimise the problem, are they good at splitting their attention (particularly for childminders who are often the only adult)?

We go into the nursery to drop kids off. To get in, we have to ring the bell and they let us in, door is always locked.

I’ve never noticed any issue with dirty floors or mud. Maybe you could highlight this to them so they can address it, even if it’s just to send a note to all parents not to enter with dirty shoes.

As for ratio, I would assume some members of staff may be doing something else like going to the toilet or fetching an activity, or off changing a nappy etc.

We’ve been v pleased with nursery, it was childminders that we had a lot of issues with and would never use again.

Rubbish. Childminders can be just as bad, if not worse.

So you would you become homeless then?

Well your not going to be walking in with your own key, unlikely to be allowed muddy shoes on and unless they hide kids under the stairs you will know how many are there.