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DD just started at a Montessori, please tell me if this is normal, if I am being silly or if I should say something?

25 replies

MinkyBorage · 26/04/2008 12:00

DD1, 2.6 had her first afternoon at a Montessori nursery on Thursday, she's booked in to do two afternoons a week. I'm going to stay for the first couple of weeks to settle her in. This is long and boring, I'm sorry, but I'm trying to clarify my thoughts at the same time as asking for your advice.
When we arrived she went out to run around the garden, for half an hour with the other children. She liked it. No one really went ott welcoming her, or explining what was happening, just let her get on with it.
Then the children were all asked to line up. Their names were called in order of who was lining up well, and those children went inside to the 'classroom'. They took their coats off and put them in a box, then tooke their shoes off put slippers on. Then for about 1 hour 15 mins they played with the fantastic toys t their own pace. DD ws pretty much left alone, no one bothered even to tlk to her for what felt like ages, but she was OK. The staff were really firm about the children putting 'work' away when it was finished with and before getting new 'work' out. I can understand this and think it's great tht this is encouraged, but they seemed to spend their whole time chasing round making sure people were putting things away. At one point, a little boy started absentmindedly singing (joyously) loudly, and was told not to make so much noise. There were two staff to 12 children which felt like a stretch, and there was a student, but she didn't seem to be much help.
When this time was over, the children put everything away, and then collected mats to sit on for sit down time, one day it was singing, the next every child got to stick something on a picture. The sticking day, every child took it in turns to chose a picture to stick on a wall collage. DD1 went first, she chose a picture, took it to the collage to glue and stick on to the picture. This seemed to take ages, then she was sent to line up at the door to go and wash her hands. Then each child took a turn to do the same, it took ages and all the while DD1 was expected to stand very still at the frint of the line. Some of the children who were waiting to stick were getting bored, and inevitably were rolling around standing up by the end, and they were not llowed to glue. When the other children were ready, the good queuers were taken to wash their hands, after which they were expected to queue again to come back in to the classroom. Then they sat down and eventually when everyone else was sitting down too, they were given plates of fruit to share. After this they put on their shoes and coats, and each childs name was called, "Boris, stand up, turn around, stamp your feet, line up", which I guess should have been fun, but actually Boris just looked like he was following orders, which had been delivered without a hint of fun or humour, and it just looked sad, not fun. They then queued again to leave the room to play in the garden. Oh I'm waffling a lot. But I just though there seemed to be so many rules, such a lot of telling off, so so much lining up, the really obedient kids looked a bit like they'd been brain washed (I know I'm being extreme, and exaggerating, but ykwim). One girl who was a total pita just seemed to be getting told 'no' all the time.
I think the problem is that the two women who look after the children didn't seem fun, loving, or to have a sense of humour. Does Montessori have to be all about quiet play and 'work' or can it be fun and loving too?
I just want to do my absolute best for DD, and before these couple of afternoons watching it, I really though that Montessori would be best. A friends dc go to a nursery which sounds like a lot of fun, the kids run around, engage in free play, have warm relationships with the children, which sounds great, but they will only have children for full days and I only want her to go for half days atm. I want her to be learning, and love all the teaching toys Montessori has, but I'd also like her to have some fun, and enjoy herself. She said she liked it, but I think it could have been so so much better if the women were a bit nicer.
I'm really sorry, I didn't really know where to start, feel free to skim read!!!
Feeling really sad about it because I just wanted it to be right for her, but tbh I don't relly wnt these women looking fter my dd.

OP posts:
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ruddynorah · 26/04/2008 12:06

isn't it supposed to be 1:4 for 2 year olds? or do montessori not go with ofsted guidelines/rules? don't know much about it.

johnso · 26/04/2008 12:08

Find somewhere else for her to go if at all possible.
I think that the staffs ound joyless. It probably isn't a reflection on the Montessori method, just that they are ill informed/ badly trained.
It personally sounds too regimented for me

FranSanDisco · 26/04/2008 12:15

Ratio should be 1 staff to 4 children but you mention a student was present so she would be counted. This sounds a very regimented nursery. Where I work everything is child led with lots of free choice. If they don't want to do it that's fine. Your dd should be on the birth to 3 curriculum (under 3's). Is this a proper Montessori or one that just tags the name on?

MinkyBorage · 26/04/2008 12:20

ruddynorah, do you mean 1:4 staff to children? Where would I find this info? In the nursery info pack it says that their staffing ratio conforms to government standards, and they say that the student is additional to that, not included. I hadn't really though about it properly, but 1:6 seems a bit crazy for 2 - 3 yo!
It sounds really regimented, I know, but I don't really know what else to do.

OP posts:
LIZS · 26/04/2008 12:23

Montessori is perhaps more orderly and child led (within stated parameters) than many. It is a mix of organised and free activity. Many chidlren respond well to clear boundaries and it makes for a more calm and controlled environment , won't suit all though. Perhaps they were less tactile and more self conscious because you were there ? I'd give it longer as ds loved his which sounds fairly similar.

MinkyBorage · 26/04/2008 12:23

Fran, it's a proper one. Where you work, is there so much queuing and orders to do things?
None of them have spoken to me about dd, she's only just potty trained, and needs to be asked if she needs a wee very regularly, but so far they haven't even said hello to her as often as they'll need to do wee check.
I expect they'll be pissed off having to clean up after her.

OP posts:
johnso · 26/04/2008 12:23

Minky- I think it is true that some places just take the Montessori name on, rather than fully understanding and implementing the ideology.
I believe it is supposed to be child led

NotQuiteCockney · 26/04/2008 12:25

Yeah, the gov't standard is 1:4 for her age (of course, if any of the kids were over 3, that changes things), but schools may be exempt? I'm not sure.

This does sound like a lot of regimentation for that age, tbh - are most of the kids older?

I use a local cooperative nursery, which is only half days, and parents work alongside the staff. We get them to wash their hands, put on and off coats, but we minimise the queueing. If we had an activity like the one you describe, one person would take kids aside in groups of no more than 4 kids and do the activity with them - we do this a lot. Getting them all to queue up for an activity is stupid imo (and not very Montessori, tbh).

Maybe a playgroup would suit your needs better?

LIZS · 26/04/2008 12:26

It's 1:4 for 2 yr olds but 1:8 for 3+, so could well be fine if there were 12 in total.

aDad · 26/04/2008 12:27

Your experiences sound similar to ours with montessori. It all seemed rather joyless to us too, too much 'work' and no free play. We took dd1 out after a term and have zero regrets.

Although she had not outwardly complained, she was delighted to go somewhere more fun without the emphasis being on work.

Other people I know have great things to say about montessoris and happy children who have been to them, but our local one was far too rigid, certainly for children that are so young, and it's put me off the whole system.

MinkyBorage · 26/04/2008 12:27

Fran, where would I find the government guidlines for the staffing ratio? I'd like to take info in with me when I go back.

OP posts:
LIZS · 26/04/2008 12:30

Nursery ratios but slightly different again for 3+ at nursery schools with a qualified teacher see here

FranSanDisco · 26/04/2008 12:31

Does your child have a Key worker. Does the Nursery have a Key worker system. Ask to see their policies and procedures file - it should be available for all to see. When you dd started did someone (Keyworker) take info from you to build a profile of you dd. They should be aware of toilet training etc. All children should be treated as individuals. Ofsted are very keen to have more free choice for children to make decisions. Nurseries should be moving away from lots of sitting down work unless this is what the child wants to do. Of course there are rules and boundaries but they are to keep everyone safe not to take away the fun element.

soapbox · 26/04/2008 12:34

My DC's went to a Montessori nursery and some of this is familiar, but no where near as much crowd management as yours and staff who were very good at working one on one with the children.

The routine there was pretty much:

Circle time/register/news children sit on mat expected to listen carefully to other children's news (15 mins and parents could stay).

Work time - 1 hour - children expected to work quietly, on their work mats and to put things away properly when they are finished with them (this is a key tenet of Montessori principles). Teachers work with the children on a one on one basis. Children can only share activities if the child who first had it, allows the newcomer to share.

Drinks and fruit time - sitting at tables - children expected to pour their milk/water from jugs on the table.

Hand washing time.

Back for free play - 1 hour of playing time - inside or out. Children can choose what to play with.

Back in for circle time 10 mins - group activity based. Line up for shoes/coats then passed to parents as they arrive to collect.

I do think that there are a lot of rules but the children do pick them up quite quickly and I found it good preparation for school from that POV. The total freedom for the child to choose what to work at was less good when making the transition to school where you are pretty much told what you are doing.

The children had a lovely time there and the teachers were warm and fantastic with the children - not too much telling off - but it probably depends on how well the children understand what is expected of them.

smartiejake · 26/04/2008 12:38

This sounds alot like one of the montessori nurseries I visited when I was looking for a place for dd1.

I was also struck at how regimented it was and the thing that worried me most was that children don't seem to be encouraged to interact or play together. Also their so called "Free play" was not actually very free as there was not actually much variety in the toys available.

I understand the point of the traditional montessori toys (equipment)that are designed to develop motor skills but they did all look rather boring to me.

Needless to say I didn't choose it for her.

FranSanDisco · 26/04/2008 12:41

For the staff ratio info you need to look up the Ofsted website and look at their Guidance for the National Standards for Day Care.

brimfull · 26/04/2008 12:45

go with your gut instinct

sounds a bit too serious and joyless to me

Scarfmaker · 26/04/2008 19:20

The Montessori method is quite regimented I've heard - not a lot of play which most kids want to do - but stuff like you mentioned - and I've heard they have to polish their shoes too!

mumofhelen · 26/04/2008 20:24

I'm afraid that having visited over 19 nurseries in 3 years, what the OP wrote was typical in about 5 of the nurseries I visited. None were Montessori. Incidently, the ratio for 2 year olds is 1:4 so if there are 12 children and 3 adults, then, so long as the 'leader' - that is, one of the three - holds an NVQ Level 3 qualification then the other 2 staff members or volunteers can be unqualified, although they should hold or be working towards an NVQ Level 2 qualification.

Be aware that this is all due to change in September 2008. The Early Years Foundation Stage 0-5 years is a legal document that becomes law and all settings - even those not inspected by OFSTED - will have to follow the presciptions as set in this document. From what I can understand, settings will no longer be able to use unqualified 'students' as part of the ratio although I may have missunderstood.

mazzystar · 26/04/2008 20:38

Hmm, I think you summed it up when you said the carers didn't seem fun loving or to have a sense of humour. Not govd whatever the 'methodology'they subscribe to.

I don't think its much to do with it being Montessori [dcs are a place that is kind of montessori lite - yes they have to put away what they work/play with before getting more things out; they have lots of "practical life" activities, washing up, making bread, pizza, cakes - they have even polished their shoes as an activity- ds loved it].

It sounds a bit miserable. I'd look elsewhere

juneybean · 26/04/2008 20:38

"Staff/volunteers/students under the age of 17 cannot count towards the ratio and should be supervised at all times. Individuals aged 17 and over who are on long-term placements may be included in the ratios if the provider is satisfied they are competent and responsible."

That's from the EYFS Statutory Guidance. :D

MinkyBorage · 28/04/2008 21:03

Thank you all so much for your replies, I am going to talk to the manager when we go back on Thursday, and see if that makes a difference. I'll see what happens.
I'm also going to make some appointments to see some other nurseries so we have a back up plan.
Many thanks again

OP posts:
ingles2 · 28/04/2008 21:09

Minky,.. from my experience you've found a true montessori school! have a look at this thread where I've posted about my experiences.
Feel free to CAT me if you'd like to know more.

MinkyBorage · 29/04/2008 17:37

Ingles, I've CATed you.
Thanks

OP posts:
PortAndLemon · 29/04/2008 17:54

It sounds rather miserable. I'd be looking for somewhere else, definitely.

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