Advice needed… I think my nursery manager has been miscalculating our fees since the start of the year

[JustAnotherKentishMother]

This is a long one because I’m trying to explain this to myself whilst writing it.

DC1 turned 3 last autumn and since DH and I both work we are entitled to 30 funded hours of childcare starting last January. Our nursery manager is fine with this and is happy to stretch the hours over the 51 weeks a year the setting is open, and says the funding covers everything except consumables (meals) which is £2.50 per day (basic fees are £6.75 p/h).

With the stretched funding we should in theory be entitled to 22ish hours a week- DC is only in nursery for 17 hours a week.

However, the management information for childcare settings in our county is quite confusing as it breaks it down according to universal entitlement only (I’ve attached a screenshot).

Where it says “Funding over 48 weeks- stretched” it shows that we can only use 12 hours per week. However, I spoke to the families & info service last week, who clarified that it is per entitlement - so 12 hours per week of universal entitlement (the 15 hours that everyone gets), and 12 per week of extended entitlement (the additional 15 hours that working parents get). So 24 hours in total.

However, when the nursery manager and I were discussing the funding and fees towards the end of last year (which was difficult, as her first interpretation of the funding, and therefore the fee breakdown she sent to me, made no sense whatsoever) and she showed me this document, it was clear that she believed we are only entitled to claim 12 hours per week full stop- the end result being that we’ve been paying for 5 hours per week since the start of January (nearly £200 a month including meals), and because she’s also stuck to the funded weeks schedule in the document, we’ve paid almost £400 for the months of April and August, and are due to again in December.

Basically, so far this year we have paid nearly £2000 in fees despite not using our full entitlement of hours. If I’m right (and I’m pretty certain that I am) and we should only have been paying for meals, then that means we’ve overpaid by almost £1800.

I’m not great at awkward conversations, and it doesn’t help that she recently bumped up DC2’s fees by almost £20 per month without any warning or explanation, so I had to ask her about it and I feel like I’m constantly quibbling about fees. But obviously, that is a lot of money that we are owed, and I need to have the conversation with her about it so we can figure out what to do. But how do I explain it to her? I feel like, as a nursery manager, she should already know how all this works.

Can anyone look at what I’ve written and reassure me that my understanding is correct before I speak to her about it? And if I’m right- how the hell do I broach this?

That seems to be a very poor information document if it's intended to cover the 30hrs funding as well as the 15.

I would agree that the 12hrs is the stretched equivalent of the 15hrs,as the non stretched column states it is for 15hrs, not 30.

I would explore the calculator mentioned at the end of the document, hopefully that's an official calculator and will clearly show what your entitlement is.

My concern on the overpayment I think, would be that if they have only claimed the funding for 15 hrs for you rather than 30, are they even able to backdate that to them be able to refund you? You might find that they can only claim in the current term, and as we've just started a new one they may not be able to claim anything extra for the terms from the last school year.

If they have got it wrong, it does make you wonder how many other parents they're doing this too, as well?!

Something else to check - do they have a time period during the day where they allow funded hrs and outside of that you have to pay full rate?

The nursery I used would stretch funded hrs across the whole year, but they had to be used between 9 and 3 I think. Is there maybe something like that that hasn't been communicated clearly?

That’s one thing I’m worried about, although when I checked I was told that the nursery have been claiming for all the hours I’m using and possibly more…

When I phoned the families & info service last week the person I spoke to sent me a follow up email which said-

“The PVI calendar on the Kelsi website that was shared with you by your provider states. “Please be aware that a child can claim a maximum of 570 hours of Free Early Education (Universal Entitlement) in a funding year and, if eligible, a further 570 hours of free childcare (Extended Entitlement)” This shows that providers can claim for both Entitlements (if appropriate) and the PVI calendar is a guide for both of these.”

But it’s as clear as mud when you look at the actual document, and I can see how it would just be taken at face value.

I know there are quite a few over 3’s in the setting, however of those I don’t know how many are not using their full entitlement of funded hours- it seems like it would only be an issue in this particular situation.

I don’t think the nursery manager is trying to deceive me or anything and I feel bad because I like her and DC1 has been going to her for 3 years now; however she’s only been a nursery manager for a year- before that she was childminder with a very small setting in her home, but she decided to expand and open a nursery. She still accepted funded hours when she was a childminder so she should know how this works, but it’s clear to me that her expertise lies in the childcare side of things, and not so much with the funding and finances!

No, she was very clear when we were first discussing it that in her setting the funded hours cover the whole day and the only extra is consumables ie meals (and nappies where applicable).

I would totally think it's a misunderstanding if they're only claiming 15hrs (unstretched) but if they're claiming any part (or all?!) of the second 15hrs, which it sounds like they are, then I can't see how they would think your 17hrs weren't covered.

£2.50 a day top up seems unbelievably cheap - are you sure that's not an hour?

If you want to address it, I would make a spreadsheet. Lay out side by side how you have been billed and how you think you should have been billed week by week with columns for each relevant detail.

It is further muddled by the fact that we also use the tax free childcare accounts, so yes getting a refund could be tricky.

Yep pretty sure the only top up is meals, and they’re charged at £2.50 a day.

Did you give her your 30 hour code and sign a funding agreement?

I did yes

Ok, 30 hr eligibility needs to be verified every 3 months so please make sure your eligibility hasn’t run out.

what are the nursery operating hours per day ? Only asking this as you mention they are only in for 17 hours per week. When you had zero funding did you pay them per hour?

then it should be just a case of emailing and asking how do they calculate it. Do it as simple as possible saying the nursery should be claiming for stretched funding of 24 hours per week your child attends 17 hours per week so this should be covered by funding but you know you have to pay £2.50 per day for meals so this would be £5 per week if you attend 2 days a week

the tax free childcare shouldn’t be a concern/complicate things as is just how you pay fees. If there is a refund it will need to be paid back into the tax free childcare account.

hope some of this helps

What does it say on your invoice, as far as I am aware they need to be clear and transparent when dealing with funding. (I used to work in education finance at LA) I began by accessing the 15 hours funding and got a fright when I got an invoice as there had been no mention of top ups etc. The manager explained that it was just showing my funded hours. I now do some odd extra sessions which I pay for and can see what is funded and what is paid for on my bill. Pretty sure there are rules around this but your LA will know. Agree though it’s not malicious but confusing if nothing else !

Just to check - are you 100% sure you are eligible for the 30h? Both you and your dp have to be earning over a certain threshold (it's 16h pw NMW I think) but also under 100k. Ie if either of you earn too much or too little then you aren't eligible. There's also immigration status requirements.

I only mention it because you only said "we both work" but it doesn't necessarily follow unless other requirements are met