Nursery concern

[GrandadB]

My grandchild has just started nursery 3 weeks ago. The first time he came home ultra hyperactive until way past midnight, something he's never been before. When we took him in for the 2nd day, we asked what he had been given for food and drink and they refused to tell us, saying it was up to the chef what they were given each day.
To make matters worse, when we picked him up at the end of the 2nd day they said he had been sick. Again, not something he makes a habit of. He then got diorrhea later that evening which was later diagnosed as noro-virus! He has then been unable to attend for more than 2 weeks whilst recovering and going into hospital.
This morning, taking him back, I asked to be allowed to see the playroom and was told under no circumstances could I be allowed in, even whilst supervised. However, I was advised that I could happily look through the window from the outside footpath, which I find rather more disturbing than having a supervised look inside.
All I wanted to do was make sure it was clean and safe, but the attitude was really bad and the they just wrenched the baby from me and took him inside (he's still undeer 2 years old).
Apart from a formal complaint about it, does anyone know if we are allowed to look inside? Neither the parents or grandparents have ever seen inside as yet.
Forgot to say the nursery is in the grounds of the local hospital if this is relevant.

I went to look at a nursery for my DD recently.
They invited us for a visit. They have a menu up in the eating room so you can see what they have each day.
They keep a diary for you so you can see what they've eaten, how much, how many dirty nappies, when they've napped.
They've told me when she starts I can go and see her whenever I want in the day.

Did your DC not visit the nursery beforehand?
Does the nursery have an Ofsted rating?
I'd be removing the child from the nursery and looking elsewhere.

Is there a reason you chose this specific nursery? I chose ours based on the tour around, the menu is posted up on a wall, the staff couldn't do more to answer my questions. I'd be looking for an alternative, and also sending an email asking specifically why I cannot be told the meals and see the rooms.

I'd be looking for another nursery. That sounds very poor. I go into the playroom at every drop off and pick up at ds's nursery. The menu is on the notice board, and we have an app which staff use to record what ds eats and how much. It also covers nappy changes, sleep and what he does during the day. If they aren't prepared to tell you/show you, take your child elsewhere.

Unfotunately, it was my stepson who 'chose' it based on the fact it was the closest to our house. He does suffer from severe mental learning difficulties and wouldn't have pushed for any answers, hence why I got involveed this morning. I'll ask again when I collect him tonight and see how he is, but otherwise we'll be looking elsewhere I think.

Thank you all for the replies.

Please move him. I've worked in nurseries. This is not normal behaviour. You should be provided with a summary of everything he has eaten each day. You should be allowed into the room to collect him each day. You should have even been given the opportunity to stay with him during settling in period!

Many thanks MsChatterbox. Much appreciated.

They refused to tell you what he'd eaten? Move straight away.

They don't let you into the room? A few nurseries do this. You never get to check for quality. Move straight away.

I viewed a few nurseries and was always offered a guided tour by the staff. They then gave me print outs of meal menus (usually 4 weeks worth on a monthly rotation), a list of ingredients for each meal was also available. At drop off, I take my child into the room and speak with the staff each morning, and the same at pick up. If my child is injured or sick I get a phone call immediately to collect early.

OP the nursery you describe sounds terrible

We picked him up last night and he couldn't wait to get out. It would appear that the 'nurse' that I met in the morning had clearly said something as we were greeted by another nurse on arrival and presumably the owner lurking behind her, whi didn't say a word. We were then given a run down of the food he had that day and what he had been doing before we had even asked.

However, I mentioned that he had had noro-virus from his first day there and that we had to take him to hospital, and the look of horror on the 'owner's' face was a peach, which was quite satisfying.

However, when we got home he was extremely hyper once again and wouldn't go to sleep at all. He was terrified of being left alone in his bed, even though it's right next to ours. I had to hold him and rock him for about an hour and a half, but his whole body kept convulsing evey minute or so. It was exactly the symptons you would see from someone coming down from a 'high'. It was midnight before he finally fell asleep where he would normally be fast asleep by about 9-9.30

The morning nurse had also phoned my stepson during the morning to complain about my attitude....

Needless to say, he won't be going back there.

@GrandadB I'm so glad you're there to protect him. Are you the primary carers with your SS living in the same home?

If they won't let you look round I'd be extremely concerned. Every nursery under twos and over twos private and school joined has given me a tour and let my son play to see what it's like. They want to show you round to give a good impression. Have you tried looking on ofsted to see what they've given the place?!

If he's convulsing like you say then I'd be taking him to a gp to see if they could rule anything out.
Sounds sketchy just hearing about it.

I can walk into my child's nursery any time, with finger print access. I can look through the door and see what's going on before I come in. The staff answer any questions and like others said, have the menu on the wall and an app with information about what child ate that day, nappies, naps etc.
I would pull him out now and report that place because convulsions or anything abnormal for him is a concern.
Write this all down and take it and him to the GP, then call the Local Authority.

That's awful.
I'd move him.
You are paying them. So they need to supply you with the appropriate services. They are not meeting your perfectly reasonable standards. There will be much better places.

Thanks everyone. My stepson and the baby both live with us together with the daughter-in-law. However, it's myself and my wife that actually look after the baby most of the time due to their mental issues. Luckily my wife is a nurse, so that helps enormously!

On the plus side, he seems to have recovered again this morning from the hyper activitiy of last night.

The issues have now been reported to the appropriate authorities and we are now looking elsewhere for a new nursery.

Well done.
I use a childminder and apart from Chickenpox that ripped through the entire school my children haven't really caught anything worse than the sniffles.

I like the home setting as when they feel tired they just walk into the living room and have a nap. She's happy to give loads of affection and takes them out to parks and soft plays.

If you have time to look around you could ask to interview some childminders.

Clarification please?

At what point did you or the child’s parents first make the nursery aware he had been diagnosed with norovirus?

Only yesterday when we took him in and again when we collected him.

It's not unusual for children to be a bit hyper after playing with friends all day. The nursery should show one of you around the facilities. If your stepson has already done this, they may be wondering why a grandparents also wants to come - perhaps you could explain your family set up to them. It's very unusual for a nursery not to tell you what they have eaten. If the child is ill, you really need to let them know ASAP (ie the day you got a noro virus diagnosis).

As @SMaCM says, children can get hyper after childcare, particularly when settling in. Usually it’s a short-term thing as they adjust to a new level of stimulation. Where it becomes a problem, parents should seek a solution in partnership with the childcare provider.

I don’t personally like carers being shut out of a nursery as an inflexible rule. Sadly, it is becoming more common: another ill-considered practice masquerading as 'safeguarding'. This policy is slowly creeping into more settings, frequently driven by the demands of parents.

However, I can see how a demand to inspect the premises for safety and cleanliness could go down badly: they are already inspected officially by Ofsted and EHO for that very reason. And, as @SMaCM points out, the child’s father had the opportunity to look round previously. By way of comparison, any grandparents asking to inspect a school would get similar short shrift.

In any case, I don’t see what purpose it would serve. You’re not going to find visible evidence of norovirus. There won’t be pools of poo and vomit. You won’t be allowed to check while they change a nappy.

Norovirus is extremely contagious and can be caught anywhere there are people. Places where people are confined together are particularly susceptible to outbreaks: Schools, hospitals, nurseries, playgroups, cruise liners, etc. An outbreak, never mind a single case, does not indicate lack of hygiene: norovirus is so easily caught, it doesn’t need dirty conditions. The fact that the nursery is in hospital grounds may well be highly significant, as you yourself suggested.

As your wife is a nurse, I’m very surprised you didn’t know this. Moreover, I am shocked that you didn’t report the diagnosis to the nursery at the earliest opportunity. Childcare and education settings have enhanced protocols which are put into place to counter these illnesses. Your failure to report may have delayed this and possibly lead to other people becoming ill. Again, something a nurse would surely be conscious of.

Cleanliness concerns should be reported to your EHO; concerns about care and welfare to Ofsted. I don’t see anything here that would get them out to inspect. Nurseries do have a regulatory obligation to inform parents about food and drink provided, but the regulations are vague about the exact details: it’s unclear whether that means a daily run down is necessary. They started telling you in detail on day three so, even if Ofsted felt there was a problem initially, they would regard it as fixed.

Surely they didn’t refuse to tell you what he had to eat, why would they?

My little boy went through a phase of not going to sleep until 9pm after being at nursery, having usually gone to sleep at between 6.30 - 7. If he’s used to not going to bed until 9pm, I don’t think that 11pm is overly unusual.

Just a quick update - as of last night all of the hospital wards on the site were closed due to the noro virus.

My son has been to two nurseries since he was a baby (we moved areas). In both nurseries I went into his room to pick him up each day, and had a update on what he was eating. I also did several settling in sessions where I stayed in the play room with him. His current nursery has an app telling me what he’s eaten each day. This nursery sounds very odd - I think you’re right to move him.

I’m struggling to see why so many posters think the nursery is at fault in this. Am I missing something?

@GrandadB
Unlikely as it sounds, do you have parental responsibility in law for the child? Or lasting power of attorney for the parents in matters relating to the child? Or any other form of legal order to make decisions for the child?

I’m a bit puzzled over the norovirus diagnosis. Was a stool sample provided?