Playgroup Fees

[Zaccat1]

Hi all,

Just wanted to ask a quick question. My child attends a playgroup/preschool setting. He attends 15 hours a week which are now covered by gov't funding; however we are still charged £28 month for 'additionals' such as snacks and an hour a week of singing lessons. It is term time only.

They have recently announced a £50 admin fee to be paid at the start of each academic year for admin and have moved the payment date to a month before. So I received an invoice today for £78 to be paid by the 8th August.

What do you think about this? If dc could attend a school nursery we would not face any of these charges - he cannot attend a school nursery because of logistics. (older children attend our local school which does not have a nursery?). We are not in London. I just feel this is a lot of money for a setting which is in a community centre.

Thanks

I forgot to say that he has attended since he was 2. I just don't see the need for an admin fee!

I think it's fine. These groups are run on shoestring. What do you expect?

I didn't think they were allowed to charge fees for the free 15 hours

It's not fine if they aren't supposed to do it

They are allowed to charge for snacks and singing as the pittance we get from the government to provide the 'free' entitlement is not enough. What they can't do is make you pay it. It has to be voluntary but if you don't pay it you may find that you have to provide his snack and he won't be able to take part in the singing group as that is above and beyond his entitlement. Pre schools are closing at an alarming rate because of the funding and need to find other ways of making money. Pre schools attached to schools are taking all the children as they are deemed to be better able to provide the care for 'free'. But bear in mind most pre schools run on a 1:8 ratio and school nurseries are on 1:13 which can have an impact on some children.

They have obviously changed their payment requirements to get the cash flow going but, if you can't afford it all in one go should offer a payment plan.

So £50 a year, over 11 months of school is about £4.50 a month. Plus the £28 is a total of £32.50 a month. For this you get 15x4 = 60 hours of childcare. That comes to 54p an hour. I don't think you have much to complain about. Without these charges the pre school would probably close down.

The more people get free the more they moan soon nobody will have a choice as the only option will be to send your child to school at 2 as nothing else will be open schools are exempt from normal ratios as they have qualified teachers so your 3 year old can be cared for on mass cheaper than to stick to ratios of private nurseries of course they wont get the same support with stuff like learning how to use cutlery table manners and toileting and the number in school in nappies is rising already with teachers moaning they are not school ready but not trained in this type of development.

The 15 hours should be free at the point of delivery.

The money paid by the government is not realistic in that it does not cover the operating costs of the groups.

Groups/nurseries have to come up with additional fees in order to cover their running costs.

I think you don’t bite the hand that feeds you. You are incredibly fortunate to be offered this consession so embrace the charges

Thank you for your replies. Much appreciated. Melliegrantfirstlady - I'm not sure if you are aware but all children are entitled to 15 hours free childcare starting in the term after they turn 3.

I totally understand about ratios etc but in school nurseries are taught by qualified teachers. At the end of the day my child will be staying in this setting and will ultimately be paying for the 'extras'. I just wasn't sure how common it was.

Could you discuss it with the council/LA Putting in fees may mean that some of those that are eligible would not be able to attend due to cost and that is against the idea of 15 hours free for everyone

But that’s the point , it’s not free, it’s funded. And the government will tell you it’s them paying for it but they are woefully underfunding and it’s the settings that are making up the shortfall.

Please look up ‘champagne nurseries on lemonade funding’.

And a PP was right, the more people get for free, the more they moan.

It's supposed to be free for the children that attend though. My 2 went to nursery for their free hours and the only money we paid was £2 A week for snacks

Settings are allowed to charge for extras though. As you said you paid for snacks. They can charge for things outside of the basic educational hours.

What's the £50 admin fee for then? I can understand snacks and singing are extra but what benefit do they get from the extra £50?

Well you’d have to ask the individual nursery since I don’t work there, but there are so many additional expensive with running a setting aside from snacks and singing!

Agreed the amount paid to childcare providers in any registered setting is pitiful. I am more than happy to help with shortfall. The amount paid to the local councils for these funded hours is below the normal rate and the local council are then allowed to deduct a % for their admin costs. I do not begrudge paying for a lunch break and snacks at nursery or indeed paying £1 per hour extra to my childminder on all my funded hours, as my daughter has received exceptional care from her since she was 1 and my childcare costs have reduced by £400 per month since I have been entitled to the 30 hours. If these places close down or childminders decide to change job because its not financially viable then there will be a real problem.

I see it from both sides. As a parent we are told/assume it's free childcare. It's not. It's funded and what the LA pays a nursery/childminder is often less than what they charge per hour so they either charge "extras" to make up the shortfall or they refuse places for funded children. I know of several outstanding nurseries that have closed in the last couple of years because they cannot afford to keep going on what the LAs pay for funded places.

As for the £50 admin fee each year, I think this is a bit off. I understand them charging £50 for new applications but I think you should ask them in a polite way to explain what this admin fee covers. It sounds to me it is just another way to recoup the shortfall.

An admin fee might cover the time it takes a staff member to input funding details, child and family details and check codes which has to be done termly. It may be for the learning journal that is produced every year including printing and photographs unfortunately we have been told to be creative in how to keep business's sustainable and a £1here 50p there on each child may well make the difference.

Suggestions made by government employed advisors have included put all staff on the same minimum wage regardless of experience, ask staff to do unpaid hours, ask parents to come in and do admin, ask staff to provide consumables (many do bring in paper glue etc.) - asking staff to take in parents ironing (yep really) charge more for under 3's and even more for babies telling parents its because they are harder work. Charge retainers, holding fees, registration fees, admin charges, extra for lessons like languages, music, sports.

In my area I know of 4 nurseries now closed as they cant make ends meet, numerous child-minders have also now left.

Zaccat1 - in school nurseries they are taught by qualified teachers - yes but they can also be taught by qualified teaches in private nurseries and childminding settings and in all settings the curriculum is the same as it is governed by the EYFS, they do no formal teaching it is learning through play in addition the qualified teacher in a school is not trained in nappy changing, toilet training, supporting children in eating (many cant eat with a knife and fork and school lunches don't look at how children eat) they have less emotional support if they are struggling as the ratio is so high the staff don't have the same time and in my local schools teachers are moved between year groups and tend to expect 3 year olds to behave like 7 year olds.
phonics and getting ready for school is taught in exactly the same way.

The only reason they are asking for these amounts is because they need them to break even. The funding does not cover the delivery cost.

You are also incorrect that parents using school nurseries do not have top up charges. I will be paying £20 a week for school nursery.

Nurseries are obliged to make the 15/30 hours availability free at the point of delivery. They can also offer additional services at an additional charge: eg extra hours, meals, singing classes. They must not require a parent to take up additional services as a condition of getting the funded place.

With regard to admin/registration fees, there are some local variations. Generally, these are permitted but only chargeable to parents who have opted in for additional services.

There is a lot of foot-stamping over nurseries 'breaking the rules' to put 'unfair' charges onto parents, as if they were milking families in order to make massive profits. Nothing could be further from the truth.

Even before the disastrous introduction of the 30 hour scheme, almost 50% of U.K. nurseries were not making any sort of profit at all. Many private nurseries are at risk of closure because they cannot cover their costs; there is a very real possibility that 25% of Early Years places could be lost.

So when questioning or criticising these nurseries, we must remember why they make these unwelcome charges.

1. It is so they can stay in business. Would you rather they close?
2. It is so they can stay in the funded scheme and at least offer you very much reduced bills. Or would you rather pay the full fee?
3. It is so they don’t have to increase their general fees to non-funded children. (I saw a nursery’s accountant recently calculated it could cover its funding shortfall by charging £10-£12 per hour to under-3’s, thereby cross-subsidising the funded children. Is that really what mums want to pay when returning to work from maternity leave?)

Please watch this video
m.youtube.com/watch?v=0Zm-mYA6XpQ