nursery changing our child's days

[Elfen]

My 2 year old has just started nursery 2 short days a week with the 2 year old scheme, which gives him free hours until January 2016.

I had assumed that once we had found a nursery place our child would remain there, as long as he was happy, until he started school, with the same days unless we asked to change them due to work or other commitments and if other days were available.

But yesterday I received an email saying that all the children in the 2 year old room move up to the 3-4 year old room in September, am I thinking of continuing at the nursery from September, and if so we would have to switch to two different days.

I am upset as it would be very difficult for us to switch days. Not completely impossible, but it would cause a great deal of ongoing, long-term stress and upheaval. On the other hand, it has been nearly 2 months of emotional aargh settling our child and I worry it would be too much distressing upheaval for him to change nursery. Added to that is the worry that it might be hard to find a nursery with a 2 year old scheme place available mid year especially with the days we require - there are long waiting lists for nurseries here anyway.

What upsets me is that no mention of this was made when we applied for the nursery or at any point in the admissions process and it is not mentioned in the handbook or contract. It did not occur to me to ask as I assumed a nursery place lasts until a child goes to school. What also upsets me is that I was not asked if I was able to switch days, just told that if we wish to remain at the nursery we will have to.

I have called the manager about it and she said that if another parent changes their days or a child leaves we might be able to have our days back. She has allocated all the spaces in the 2 year old room from September, so our space there is no longer free (I had assumed my child would stay in the 2 year old room until after he is 3 anyway - his 2 year old scheme funding lasts until January and I expected him to have the 15 hours from the 3 year old place next year and another paid by us if we need it and if available).

Is this normal practice - surely I should have been asked if we were able to change days, then our needs taken into account when allocating places?

I'm a nursery manager maybe I can give you an insight into how nurseries work
Nurseries get very little for the free funded places and many take a loss to offer them
The nursery will give priority to a fee paying child over a funded place as the nursery day is generally for longer hours- so the nursery lose money on the days they offer the funded days I they could have taken on a fee paying child
The nursery can decide which days and hours they offer the funded hours to suit them
They may have assumed that because you are not using the place as childcare you will be more flexible with your days
Having said all that I think its only polite to ask first. But maybe they have tried asking in the past and have found the best approach is just to dictate their terms on a take it I'd leave ur basis

*Take it or leave it

insancerre I have heard this before about nurseries making a loss from the free hours. Would you mind saying, do the govt pay a set rate or do they pay the rate parents would pay?

Elfen this would annoy me. Kids get 2 yr funding for a reason, its no use if they cant access it. And they shouldn't get treated like 2nd class citizens. I would probably take my custom elsewhere and copy my letter explaining why to Ofsted but Im stroppy and it might not be the best thing for you.

We get a set rate
So if the hourly rate is £8 because the nursery has highly qualified staff with higher wages then they make a loss as the funding is often under £4 an hour
I don't think ofsted would be interested I'm afraid, as its nothing to do with them. The funded hours are being offered, the nursery can dictate which hours are free

I think the funding issue is a red herring.

You have a contract with a notice period. Either party can change the arrangement (within reason)if the notice period is used.

It may be common practice to keep the same days throughout until the child leaves for school, but I don't think you have a right to them - you have those days until they cannot provide them for you, then they can change them.

How bizarre. I do bot think it's a normal practice at all! We've used 3 diff nurseries and none of them would do that.

Bot - not!

They're moving in September because that's natural movement time, with school children leaving. You will still have a 2 yr old funded space. You need to ask why the days have changed, just in case they have assumed you are flexible.

insancerre thank you. I've been wondering that for a while.

The government just pretend they're providing free hours. In reality at most settings, the provider is paying for about half of the space.

(Same with free school meals, not fully funded by the government)

I see what you mean about nurseries having to manage so having to give priority to people paying more, but this is a community nursery and a charity, so I imagine (not had time to look into its history) set up to provide childcare for locals who need it.

The 2 year old scheme is for people who desperately need the childcare as they are in difficult circumstances, though it is also given to people who are on low incomes.

I have since spoken to the manager again and been told she deliberately gives priority to parents who work and puts the 2 year old scheme children last when allocating days. Astounding arrogance or shocking ignorance, as plenty of parents eligible for the 2 year old scheme work and those who do not are by definition in very difficult circumstances where they desperately need the childcare.

I have now explained to her that their handbook actually says that as a charity they are supposed to give priority to families with disabilities rather than discriminate against them like this, and have asked that they ensure it is made clear to parents when they apply to the nursery that their days might be changed, as many parents would not choose a nursery if they had to worry about that happening.

The manager has agreed to make it clearer to parents applying in future and to ask if other parents can alter their days in case any are able to be flexible.

I am still upset about the way we were treated as second class, and am not convinced that other nurseries giving priority to paying parents are not contravening disability discrimination laws where eligibility for the 2 year old scheme is due to disability.

It is a pity there are not laws against discrimination on the grounds of relationship status and income, too!

Also it is crap that the government does not give nurseries the full amount so that this is not a problem for nurseries needing the income, of course.

Why don't you write a letter/ email your local council OP? I would.

I don't know...I feel bad making a fuss, at the same time feel it is disability discrimination (we have the 2 year old scheme due to disability in the family and it is very stressful indeed to have to change days as care is arranged around the days we have) and discrimination full stop to assume people who are not in paid work have lots of free time and can switch days. I want to write to the management committee at very least, but can't find any contact details for them...and am too shy/awkward to ask the manager considering...I know that when i was on the management committee of a charity, such issues would have been dealt with very seriously and information put in contracts and handbooks and explained.

It isn't about being able to provide them or not so much as about deciding that we had to change days rather than anyone else changing days, and about telling us we have to rather than asking politely and asking whether people are able to change. Also about warning parents that this might happen, from the start, when they join the nursery.

Ultimately, they don't have to offer funded places at all. So although I can empathise with you they have given you plenty of notice and you can take it or not.
Any business is going to offer most flexibility to those that are paying most as without them there would be no nursery. Funded places for 2 year olds get more money than 3 year olds so they could take 2 year olds they serve them notice. Perhaps look at a childminder instead.

I only use my childminder 2 days and am very aware she might dump me for a full timer-there are no promises in terms of childcare. I hope it works out for you.

I'm not sure that the being a business thing counts here as it is a charity, but I don't know how to look into their statutes or conditions as a charity. I wish I had considered the contract properly though and asked at the start whether it was a guaranteed place. The trouble is, you need childcare in order to do things like that in the first place!

There are no local childminders with 2 year old funding, unfortunately. Also it would be incredibly stressful and distressing changing our child's place as settling has been very difficult, and it might be very hard to switch nursery mid-year like this or at the end of the year in September (as our 2 year old funding is until January) - there are long waiting lists for nurseries as it is, yet alone in the middle of a funding year.

In an ideal world. yes the nursery shouldn't be giving preference to the fee paying parents
But, as the scheme operates at the moment, those fee paying parents are in effect subsidising the free funding as the nursery has to make enough to not run at a loss
I do agree that the nursery should have asked you first. I have had to change children's days who receive the funding to accommodate a new child starting but I did ask and they agreed.

You need to put in writing why you do not agree to change in days. The carers are set to come for certain days then the snowball effect of changing the days would be huge not only for you but the whole family, the carers snd their other jobs. Just because the manager is trying to do it, it doesnt mean they're right to.

The manager has now said she will ask everyone else if they can change and will put us as top priority for keeping our days if anyone else leaves or can change, so that is something. I will wait and see if anything helpful comes of that. I also said we are able to cope with just one of the days changing to one of the new ones, as although that is still stressful it is possible, rather than extremely stressful and awful as it would be with the other day. So that gives some flexibility, if that makes sense.

I'm not sure, Insanscarre, if that is a problem, having the more fortunate and well off in society give some of their extra money to make society more equal... but it should be done through taxation spent on free childcare rather than unfairly affecting some individuals and not others.

I think that although I can see your reasoning concerning nurseries that run as a business and have to make a living for those running it, this one is a charity and set up decades ago with a tier system of payments so that wealthier people do indeed pay more in order to allow less well off people equal access.

I see what you mean about how the government not paying the funded hours (for any ages) fully - that is awful and of course is the main problem here and for any childcare provider - but I would expect a community nursery that is a charity to have embraced funded schemes more fully and to have more awareness of discrimination and equality.

I think it is because it is such a small nursery that it must be so difficult to arrange the timetable to suit everyone. Nevertheless, it is still discrimination and unfair to assume that because people are on lower incomes and their children deemed (patronisingly!) "disadvantaged" they necessarily have lots of free days and can be flexible, when in fact often the opposite is true.

Thank you everyone here for your comments - it has helped clarify the situation and get a perspective on it more. It is so difficult and emotional, the whole nursery settling in thing, without extra worries about the nursery place ending or changing!

I would complain and I think you're right to be upset. How dare they presume a hierarchy of need that doesn't take into account disability or actual need.

If they agree to taking funded places then they should not discriminate. The logical option is to take fewer or no funded places. I bet their policies actually state the opposite being a charity and I would be checking their articles with a view to quoting in my complaint.