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Original poster

Liz Truss and aimless toddlers

226 replies

BoffinMum · 21/04/2013 23:22

So, Liz Truss reckons toddlers are running around pointlessly in too many nurseries. She says it's due to lack of structure in miseries.

Anyone spotted this happening?

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Strix · 23/04/2013 13:28

I do believe Ms. Truss is the one running round with no sense of purpose.

Seriously???? Do people send their two year olds to nursery to educate and prepare them for school? I send my two year old to childcare to be cared for. Naturally, there is some element of education. But, really, my ideas and hers are rarely aligned so I don't really give a toss what she thinks the educational goals should be.

Learning through diorganised play at two years old is quite age appropriate if you ask me. (and I don't plan to ask her)

fromparistoberlin · 23/04/2013 13:46

fact is a load of nurseries are poor quality, and I bet she has seen a few. I am pleased people have their kids in good places. But many are NOT and I think she makes a valid point, and one sentance has been twisted

pnin · 23/04/2013 14:02

The govt wants cheap labour (women)

Many of those women don't have cheap childcare.

If they increase adult to children ratios then prices could come down - is the theory (but I am sceptical).

The corollary is that the setting will probably have to change to become more adult-led because that's the only way a nursery could cope.

Truss' provocative comments (and they were not twisted, I'm a journalist and have seen them) were made to dress this up as concern children won't be able sit still to be taught calculus.

No research, no evidence, no real understanding of neurology of learning.

This isn't about improving standards, or passing judgement on the use of full time daycare.

This is a way of getting bums on seats.

DuelingFanjo · 23/04/2013 14:10

Ha! Clearly she's one of those people who think nurseries churn out little savages, just because her nanny raised children probably find it harder to cope with the structure of preschool once they finally make it there. All these rowdy untrained little horrors expressing their personalities and being all loud and the like, how very dare they.

MamaBear17 · 23/04/2013 14:10

My dd most certainly did not 'run around pointlessly' this morning. She ran to the bouncy castle. Then, she bounced on it. Smile Then she did some painting and declared to me when I picked her up 'look I made a castle for you' as she handed me her art work. She is happy, stimulated and well cared for at her nursery, and as she is only 20 months old, that is all I could possibly want for her.

MamaBear17 · 23/04/2013 14:12

My SIL is a early years teacher and she said that the children who have been to nursery are often better at following instructions because they have been used to structured play. I realise that one nursery and school are not reflective of a whole country, but I still have to disagree with Ms Truss.

Squarepebbles · 23/04/2013 14:14

Exactly what pnin said.

When are the early years experts going to get together and raise concerns about her?

I'm shocked she is allowed to peddle this crap.Confused

mintymellons · 23/04/2013 14:24

Right, here it is.

I'm a qualified teacher working in a pre school. Have done this for the past five years and taught in a school before that.

I absolutely think that pre school children would benefit from some form of structure instead of the present situation which is, more or less, to let them do as they please (so called child led learning). Either that, or get rid of all of the targets and levels and paperwork for this age group and let them 'just play' (like we did in the seventies/eighties!)

As a pre school teacher, all I can say is that something is going to have to give sooner or later, because it's not working well right now.

pnin · 23/04/2013 14:50

Sorry, I am not clear.

You want small children to have more structure at daycare/preschool (It's not entirely clear whether we are all referring to nursery or preschool)

But you want there to be no paperwork or targets and just let them play?

I'm not sure I follow.

But I am intrigued by your reasons for wanting structure. There are some valid arguments for having some (just not from Mrs Truss, who has political currency to gain from saying it's broken)

estya · 23/04/2013 15:26

I think there is a time for structure but there also must be time for free/child led activities for the children to develop as an individual.

Truss has come under critism for saying the child/adult worker ratio needs to change to make childcare cheaper and she realises that the only way this is possible is to stamp out the personality from the toddler so they are easier to manage in a large group (20+ children to one adult in france, which she refers to as the country that has got it right)

I wouldn't want my 2 year old in this type of environment.

estya · 23/04/2013 16:47

My DD (2yo) preschool is about a 50/50 split of structured and unstructured.
Of the 3hr session they have approx 40 mins at the start and end of structure (songs/stories/learning about chicks this week/telling and listening about what happened at the weekend etc)

The rest is free/child led but often side by side with an adult (there are 6 staff for up to 24 kids, plus normally a parent or 2 as we are encouraged to come in often). They are free to play outside or inside, the snack bar is open for all of this period and independence is encouraged (eg buttering own bread to make a sandwich) and this an equally important way to learn imo.

I think this is about right but i can see that it wouldn't be possible to have 1 adult at the snack bar, 1 min outside, 2/3 on messy activities and 1 floating if truss' ratio change was to happen here.
So the kids would have to get used to more of the structured, sit down and be quiet stuff and less learning through doing it themselves/play and making a mess

radicalsubstitution · 23/04/2013 18:16

OK, in the last month I have seen articles in the DM that suggest:

Working mothers are damaging their children by abandoning them in nurseries.

SAHM are damaging their children because they are all depressed and hate motherhood and are passing this on to their children.

Mothers on benefits are damaging their children in all manner of ways.

Middle class mothers are damaging their children by over-protecting them and not letting them fail.

Fathers are damaging their children by having affairs.

Incidentally, I have taught the child of a member of this current government who is among the most damaged children I have ever met, so I wouldn't trust their word on anything to do with parenting.

Basically, we should all stop having children because we are crap.

sunshinenanny · 23/04/2013 18:18

Sounds quite orwellian! Poor childrenSad

If this is how such young children are cared for in these countries thank goodness I don't live in one.

I have always been complimented on the nice manners/good behaviour of my young charges but this is crushing their individualiy and it's natural for small children to just play and let of steam. The idea of 1 person in charge of 20/23 small children sounds dangerous to me.

scottishmummy · 23/04/2013 20:07

I don't know if the whey faced weans run amok in nursery,staff wouldn't tell
Staff are primed to obsequiously please us avaricious parents,as we pay the fees after all
Has any one mentioned biddulph yet,banged that particular drum

Strix · 23/04/2013 20:32

Hello DuellinFango. How the heck are you? How is your two year old? Mine is a bloody thug. In the last month he has broken the Wii (DS1 devasted), my iPad (me devastated) and the microwave.

Am I the only one on here who doesn't think the purpose of nursery is to prepare them for the academic rigours of reception? Really?? I've been know to act like a militant alpha mum when it comes to academic expectations. But really... At 2? That's ludicrous.

soverylucky · 23/04/2013 22:06

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

KCS · 23/04/2013 22:06

Truss and Gove are not experts. They are just politicians.

They are simply not qualified to ride rough shod over years and years of proven research and rigorous study by educational academics. Their arrogance is astounding and frightening.

I have read and follow the current EYFS framework. It is a government initiative, so what, that's all rubbish now is it?

Truss doesn't care about the welfare and development of ordinary children. She and all her friends have Nannies and private education.
She is just interested in playing her power games to please her posh cronies.

It's true what they say, don't dare to be very old or very young with this lot. They don't give a monkeys.

Original poster
BoffinMum · 23/04/2013 23:02

OK, time for the naive question. Given that there are people who spend years and years studying health or education or whatever, and who deal with it professionally over a period of decades on a daily basis, why is it that as a democracy we leave it to complete amateurs who have barely any experience in anything at all to make key decisions?

If you interviewed these characters for jobs they would fail at the first hurdle, so why are they voted for?

OP posts:
edam · 23/04/2013 23:12

I'm sure there are poor quality nurseries. But I don't think Liz Truss sending in a battalion of degree-educated nursery teachers to get 2yos doing calculus is the answer.

JugglingFromHereToThere · 23/04/2013 23:34

I'm a degree educated nursery teacher (I think it's fair to say) but I wouldn't teach them calculus
actually I think I've forgotten how to do it if I ever knew
Catullus ? - now you're talking Grin

JugglingFromHereToThere · 23/04/2013 23:40

I think you've made an excellent point there Boffin

  • as a society we give the politicians too much say in decision making which should properly be based on research and experience analysed by experts in their fields.
Why do we do that ? And how can we change things so that politicians can offer us proper democratically elected leadership (as far as is appropriate) but not think that ministers can make policy on a whim without reference to research and evidence ?
DuelingFanjo · 23/04/2013 23:48

Hey Strix, nice to 'see' you. All well here. :)

fromparistoberlin · 24/04/2013 08:18

I am suprised at the vitriol here! comment like "savages" and "she has a nanny", like...WHATEVER!!!

only this weekend a report came out saying that a huge amount of nurseries are substandard, and seeing an issue in the fact that nursery workers get minimum bloody wage. I dont think its acceptable.

For every great nursery, there is a shit one.

The situation needs to improve, and knee jerk reactions like this are so not helpful

and this is not about your children, this is about the many children that DONT have lovely MC mummies that read them the Gruffaolo every night

TiggyD · 24/04/2013 08:25

"For every great nursery, there is a shit one."

I would say for every great one there are 3 or 4 shit ones and about 10 that are so-so.

JugglingFromHereToThere · 24/04/2013 08:46

I think there have many many excellent and thought provoking posts on this thread paris which any government minister, and especially Mrs Truss, could hugely benefit from reading (judging by her recent comments)

Certainly more helpful than the things she herself said, which is quite depressing really seeing as she's the minister responsible for child-care in our country I understand ?

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