Liz Truss and aimless toddlers

[BoffinMum]

So, Liz Truss reckons toddlers are running around pointlessly in too many nurseries. She says it's due to lack of structure in miseries.

Anyone spotted this happening?

Do you think she only stayed for about two twenty minutes?

My DS' (pre-school) nursery is fairly free flow, but at certain points they all sit down together and have a chat, story, snack or song in a group. Everything is actually very regular and there is a routine that the children are very familiar with.

If you walked in and only stayed for a bit, it might look a bit chaotic, although when I've been there it always seems fairly calm, as it's small with a high staff-child ratio. Am concerned that Truss' horrendous plans for increasing ratios will ruin this. :(

I'm a well qualified nursery worker. I do supply in lots of nurseries. To some extent I think I see where Trussy is coming from. There is a big difference between freeplay where the children are left to their own devices, and freeplay which is helped by a good worker giving guidance, stretching children by asking questions, making suggestions, being on hand to answer questions, and leading the children to areas of new learning following children's interests. It takes good staff to do the latter but nurseries are lucky to have 2 or 3 of those per setting. Most staff are just 'filler' to comply with ratios and doing the basics of nappies and stopping fights etc.
It all comes down to needing good staff who will need good training (Not NVQs) and good wages.

And about two year old nursery places (and funding) - my DD went to nursery a couple of times a week just before I had DS when she was 2.6 yrs. It was brilliant for her, and also for me with a new baby. I would have struggled without the support it offered - such a lovely "break" - and opportunity to get to know him - to be able to spend some time "just" with baby DS.

If my children didn't go to nursery they would probably run about aimlessly with me instead.

I might even plonk them in front of cbeebies if they got fed up of all that pointless running.

Agree with libertyflip, early childhood is a stage in its own right, not just a race to get ready for school. Horrible Gadgrinian approach politicians tend to take - infancy is just about hurrying up and getting ready for school, school is just about hurrying up and getting ready for work - all they want are dull, obedient worker bees who won't question authority.

Balls to that.

I suspect the poster who said it's all about softening us up for cutting ratios of staff to children is right. They want the French system of one teacher to lots of children. Actually there's been a lot of criticism of the French system for squishing creativity and individuality. Who knows which is best, but I'm not impressed by a government that is using this as cover for cutting ratios.

They'll be putting them in smart business attire next.

Sorry, post about a thread, bad form [puts self on naughty step]

I was in postoffice cursing daily mil nursery unruly toddlers headline from afar tell the lady they got a cheek.

I have 3kids 2girls attended different local private day nurseries where they were age appropriate room and well behaved with routines so they not in same room all day.

dd2nursery hs messy play room, large garden, music /dance room, snack room and group room depending on age.

dd1s nursery had room each age group, sleep room softplay music room and prision yard type garden,

Both girls used same preschool within school grounds but not part of school its rc comunity preschool run as a charity and by commitee. Its free play but they sit round have stories, say prayers and do more structured activities in their key group like nature walks or cooking ect.

Noticed more paperwork over the years.

my 2year olds just started they strated taking 2year olds due to early years 2year old grant being encouraged by local councils.

Surly more structure interferes with their efys policy seems at odd with each other.

I fear as others said its about managing the rations.

will private nurseries be except like private schools from changes?

we have very few state nurseries only 3schools locally have nurseries attached and they in deprived areas.

We as uk parents pay a lot for childcare and choose carefully and always assumed we should trust ofsted if she visited satisactory nursery then they under notice to improve.

We pay so much and have diverse and patchy childcare provision in uk as it is surly should be up to parent to choose setting they prefer and what suits their child.

We have to stop looking at other countries we not in any way similar too culturally we not a tiger country although wonder if we becoming more competative keep seeing 3year old kumon ads in local magazine.

i just feel annoyed about uk education its so flipping stressful.

in europe they have kindergarten we already have early age start school age 4 then they moan the 4year olds are behind.

dd1 had loads of homework in reception. we since moved her to a school where kids can be kids.

Craving . They've got to learn, haven't they, one day they will be at work and how on earth will they get a job if they haven't learned how to tie a necktie at age two, exactly, and how to manage a blazer in the sandpit... (No doubt all sandpits will be removed anyway as far too distracting from the main business of reading and writing and maths and two foreign languages.)

She is fucking joking.

Nurseries are too chaotic, hey let's address this by changing the ratio so there are LESS adults to children and see what happens!

"The EPPE project shows that children who attended a good-quality early years setting do better at school than those who do not."

Well, yeah.. but that doesn't make it sad. Doing well at school shouldn't be the be all and end all. It's a shame that children don't have more time with people who love them sometimes.

Mine go to nursery, so I'm not having a dig. I wish I could do a Hermione Grainger and be at work and at home all at once, that's all.

make it any less sad... grrr

9while5 - I suppose you could almost admire the cheek of it

Maybe the children didn't line up and sit in total agog and awed silence for the very important lady expected to be revered and handed bunched of flowers by little girls in spotless dresses.

Maybe they just got on with being children and played.

Re eppe project it is children from disadvantaged families who benefit(hardly suprising)and they include pre and nursery schools(which surely most children attend before school anyway)it isn't just talking about nurseries.Also full time attenders do no better than part time.

Studies show that nursery can cause aggression and that parent care is best for children,then other family members,then nannies,then finally childminders.Nursery should be a last resort.

The elephant in the room here is that nursery is not a good option for children and it's appalling that this is being swept under the carpet.

Toddlers need to run about and explore aimlessly however in big numbers it has it's problems sooooooo said minister wants to stifle their needs in order to push nurseries and cut ratios.

It really is dreadful.

When you say "nursery is not a good option for children" it certainly depends what you mean ...

For babies and very young children I think it can be a perfectly OK option as part of their 24/7 care which will still mainly be by their parents. Having worked in nurseries I think it provides a similar if slightly different level and type of care and stimulation for babies and children to what I was able to offer at home.

With older children, say from 2 or certainly from 3, I think spending at least sessions with other children (say the 15 hours currently funded) in a nursery/ pre-school setting has lots of benefits, both in it's own right and as preparation for school.

squarepebbles bollocks to that. My daughter's nursery is the best option for her after family care which only constitutes myself and my husband as we don't live in the same country as other family members.

DD is well balanced, lively, intelligent and ahead for her age in many ways. Nursery 3 full days a week (10 hours! Shock horror!) has not damaged our bond whatsoever. I agree there are probably some shocking nurseries just as I'm sure there are some shocking nannies, childminders and parents. The beauty of a nursery is that group care ensures that you don't have sole trust in one person who could abuse of that trust. I can look at my DD via webcam during the day and I get a full report of her day when I collect her of an evening.

I think you might be right lavenderhiney. If Ms Truss had visited my DS's nursery class, she would have been greeted by a tiny lad with an angelic smile asking "Would you like to smell my bottom?".

I think she would probably have needed the smelling salts to recover.

To be fair the "aimless running around" seems to have been the daily mail's spin on this rather than a direct quote.

The way I read it she wants to see children gradually being prepared for school.

What's wrong with having a point in the day where 3+ year olds sit as a group and listen to a story, or learn to dress themselves?

If you go to a playgroup, or read any number of threads on here, before a child can talk properly you'll see parents encouraging them to say please and thank you, to take turns, share, and to "wait a moment, mummy's talking".

Why is it bad to suggest nurseries do the same, alongside all those chances to run around and play.

Preparing for school isn't about sitting small children and babies behind a desk and teaching them to read. It's giving them the social and practical skills which means they can thrive when they start school.

It's no new thing. I remember it happening for me at playschool. The term before starting school we would be taken into a side room and taught to change to & from a pe kit.

I haven't read a transcript of the interview. What we have is the reports, each biased in their own way, of what was said and what was meant.

It might be that she wants to see the best nursery care being emulated and seen in all settings. It might be that she is being paraphrased so that all her meaning has been removed.

Of course, she could be clueless and about to destroy what actually seems to be a pretty good system!

Barbeasty, I think most of us, especially those who work with young children know all that and would agree. Hopefully most nurseries have some story times, at least in small groups !
However it's about the emphasis on things - the main focus should be on learning through play, and we're mostly a bit worried that Mrs Truss is thinking of eroding this fiercely defended fine British tradition. Many other countries look to see what we are doing well here too !

DD2's (pre-school) nursery has tables and areas for different activities as well as an outside area where they can run around aimlessly, or play on the equipment, or talk to the guineapig, or do some digging and find a worm. Also the older ones have now started reading schemes and someone reads with them twice a week. In the final term they will go into school for a couple of afternoons a week.

School kids do a lot of running around aimlessly at break times. Perhaps she would prefer it if they wore jackboots and marched in rows reciting the 9 times table?

I think that there is a bigger issue of the staff wondering about aimlessly than the children wondering about aimlessly in a minority of nurseries.

In a good nursery the staff will talk to the children rather than just watch.

". Also the older ones have now started reading schemes and someone reads with them twice a week. In the final term they will go into school for a couple of afternoons a week."

I'm glad that dd's school doesn't inflict reading schemes on its nursery children. Many children are put off for life by being put on the reading scheme too early.

My DD2 (18mo) goes to a nursery (in the UK) which I would recognise as Petite and kelda have described the nurseries they have experience of. For 'structure' I would say organised activity - they do painting, water play, sand play and go outside to play. None of it is silent I imagine. There is also story and song time and some time to just wander around and pick up what takes their fancy. Mealtimes are a lot quieter than even with my 5yo and DD2 at home - the food must be good!

My idea of a lovely environment, and even clingy DD2 is dropped off without a fuss.

I'm all for the government challenging and improving the quality of nursery care, but the data and evidence appear to be missing from this it sound's like one woman's view based on a relatively small sample, measured against her opinion on how children should behave..Hmm not sure that's grounds to slag off the whole industry/ system.... Also thought the Tories were against a nanny state :-D

I think there is a correlation between

Coalition want us all go back to work
Alot of of us dont want have children in Nurseries FT
Research this weekend saying 60,000 nurseries in the UK are substandard (not sure if if that number is right)

and now this!!!!

anyway I bet she has been misquoted. alot of nurseries are SHIT and dont prepare kids for school

most kids that are in FT Nursery before school are usually behind their peers that attended Nursery school, unless their parents are super teachers