Mum who opened organic children's day nursery and organic nursery school needs your opinion before she opens more!

[organicmum]

I am a mum of a 5 year old who was so horrified by what I saw children's day nurseries feeding my child (who was raised on breast milk, followed by as many organic foods as I could find), that in direct response to this my husband and I created a company in 2004 -- Organic Schools Limited with the sole purpose to open organic children's day nurseries and organic nursery schools in the UK. Our first, Hedgehog Hill Organic Nursery School, opened its doors in Greens Norton Northamptonshire on 1 February 2005 to much media fanfare (from the UK, Europe and USA), largely thanks to what Jamie Oliver was doing for children and school diners!

We are planning to open the next two organic day nurseries in Oxford and Milton Keynes starting next year; we have been asked by a major publisher in London to write a book about our experiences; and have been approached to open a national chain of organic children's day nurseries by investors. We therefore are in desperate search for the viewpoints of mums and dads on:

1. what exactly are you looking for in a day nursery?
2. what is the most important factor in making your decision: is it quality of food, quality of care, closeness to work, closeness to home, educational factors, cost, or that gut feeling you get when you go into a day nursery or nursery school and meet the managers and staff???

and 3. What is it you dislike most about the children's day nurseries and nursery schools you have seen so far?

Background on how we provide nursery care for children differently from the norm:
Our organic children's day nursery not only provides organic food and drink. At least a dozen nurseries scattered throughout the country had been doing so since 1997 and we thought that was great, but thought "organic" could move beyond food in terms of caring for children. So in 2004 we developed an "organic curriculum" as well that includes all of the OFSTED recommended Birth To Three Matters and Foundations Stage education, but also includes regular sessions of ballet and modern dance; introduction to French Spanish and German through songs and rhymes; yoga; baby massage; musical instruction and drama (all taught by qualified instructors and at no additional cost to the parents).

Our organic nurseries have indoor gymnasiums for active play rain or shine and give up to twice as much space to children than the recommended OFSTED requirements.

We also operate with eco-friendly policies and teach children how to contribute to protecting the environment and the protection of animals through lessons and school practices like recycling, growing organic vegetables in their own garden, walking buses to school, etc. And have made a point of introducing our children to some lost country arts like felt making, spinning, pottery and basket making.

We pay our nursery nurses more than the current market so we can recruit and keep only the best. And the first quality we look for in staff is: are they gentle, approachable and child friendly!!! Then we look at qualifications.

But before all of this, we make sure every child feels safe, confident and happy. Because of all of this we have an organic children's day nursery that has practically filled in the first nine months of being opened.

Our first organic nursery is nearly full so we do not need these forums for advertising (which would be silly any way, as most of you mums reading this would live miles away). 'Til now, we have done everything based upon our own opinions and those of our friends and families. We think "organic" is about much more than food and drink -- it involves the whole child including their minds, education, play and first experiences and quality of care. Our philosophy is: "growing healthy minds and healthy bodies", and we think this should start from birth.

We need to hear from mums and dads everywhere, so a chain of healthy day nurseries and a book can actually meet the needs of parents and children instead of becoming just another "chain" putting money before children!

Thanks for helping by giving us your opinions in this forum - which has already been incredibly helpful in helping us to stay on track with what mums think and want and need for their children.

one of the nurses is a hrose rider so santa came in on a horse.

We don't 'do' French, ballet etc. A bit much for our pre-schoolers and French is only ever going to be a cosmetic exercise for the parent's sake, unless they speak it at home.

Steady on cod. I'm going to have enough of a job getting him into the boots.

the nursery and the ideas that you have sound lovely, but to be honest my main concern when looking for nurseries was the gut feeling that i geot when i walked through the door for the first time. e.g happy children, sounds of playing, laughter etc.

then came facilities, food (not too bothered about organic, although we do try to eat organic at home as much as possible, but looking at home cooked food from the in house kitchens rather than processed frozen foods, so plenty of pasta dfishes, cottage pie, casseroles, fresh fruit and veges.

with regard to the facilities it is nice if the nursery offers extra activities for the older ones, such as dancing lessons, music, things that can be optional for parents who wish their child to be part of it. language lessons sound good for the pre school room as at my ds school they teach french from reception age so would benefit him. above all flexibility, i.e for those parents who want their child to join in everything and those would rather their child played and had good fun.

the idea of a big chain doesn't put me off, in fact the nursery that i decided to use was part of a chain, had lovely spacious purpose built building, plenty of equipment, outdoor area and even a cafe for mums,dads, carers to use before and after pick up drop off for socialising with other parents and talking to staff out of the way of the children. wheras the independant ones i visited seemed to be in converted houses, not well laid out and just didn't have that feeling of being right when i walked into them. (also loved the changing room that was stocked to overflowing with all types of nappies, cotton, pampers, huggies, biodegradable ones like nature etc, whereas others had been a tiny chanign table in a small cramped room that smelt distinctly like dirty nappies, because there was insufficient ventilation)

1. what exactly are you looking for in a day nursery?

A place where my child is happy to go to, safe, but gains something from her day. I want her to try new experiences at nursery and to do new things too.

2. what is the most important factor in making your decision: is it quality of food, quality of care, closeness to work, closeness to home, educational factors, cost, or that gut feeling you get when you go into a day nursery or nursery school and meet the managers and staff???

I wanted the quality of care first and foremost. Looked at the relationships between adults and child, were they happy ones etc. Second concern was the development of the child - wanted it to be individualistic, so each child was stretched within their zone of proximal development (I'm a huge Vygoyskian, sorry!), so I looked for staff who were knowledgeable about children's development and would stretch my child but not too far! Food and environmental concerns was my third priority. I like organic / fair trade food, cloth nappies etc.

and 3. What is it you dislike most about the children's day nurseries and nursery schools you have seen so far?

I am very happy with my nursery. I disliked gimmicky nurseries, and ones where the staff were ignorant to children's development. For example, there's a lot of research which says it is a waste of time to teach children foreign languages (unless they are immersed in it) until they are a bit older, so things like that would have put me off. I also disliked ignorant staff - people who did not know theories of infant development and what philosophy they were following etc. Disliked the chains, because they were often filled with ignorant staff!

But I'm not expecting the nursery workers to be brain surgoens, just for them to know how children develop and how they can best facilitate this, without doing harm!

Probably an OTT answer, but I'm a teacher, who's just studied child development for my MA, so I know how vital these early years are!!

Also, my child only goes for a couple of mornings a week, so for me it is more about the experience than the care. If she went full time, I think I would have had different priorities!

yep organic woudl make ZERO difference to me tbh

Interesting reading, this may sound more carping than it's intended to and I'm not sure what the answer is if you arelooking for this kind of big venture but

The proposed operation sounds slick but soulless, despite that being the reverse of your intention. I think warmth is a factor which can only be built in at grassroots and even with a clever business plan it won't necessarily be achieved.

nurseries are above all about people and children, all the rest is to some extent window dressing attractive for publicity but not the true value that I am looking for in nursery care. bells and whistles are nice but may detract from important matters.

Good luck.

Hi, i like your theory. After many years of working in nurseries - and now as a parent myself and looking at nurseries from that angle - i am always thinking "they don't do it as well as i did"

I'm glad to see you are paying above the average to your staff as they are the priority. No matter what your policies and advertising say, if you have staff who aren't motivated/experienced/trained and an ongoing in house and external training programme for them then the whole nursery could become a disaster.

I question your decision to teach other languages. I completed a dissertation on bilingualism/multilingualism and much research has proved that being brought up in a multilingual environment from birth has great results - BUT only if a child is living with someone who they can use the additional language with on a daily basis.
Short bursts of language lessons at a young age has no positive effects and can in fact be detrimental to their development, causing confusion in language and frustration.

I love your idea of other extracurricular ideas such as ballet and learning about the wider environment.

You say you have double the space that ofsted require, so do you also have additional staff in order to let this take effect.
I think its great to be able to break children into smaller groups to do all these additional activities you provide, but also would like to see higher staff ratios to make this safe and effective.

Organic food doesn't bother me - but healthy home cooking from a qualified chef would attract me.

Lastly local reputation is what would be important to me. Major press interest is not important - and would be an reason for me to what local parents views, as you mention all the large 'chains' get the big press interest, but i have yet to find one where the Management know the names of the children attending.
Every nursery will fill up within the first year because there simply is a shortage of childcare, and of course a brand new nursery would seem attractive to many. The question is are those parents happy with the nursery?

One final point i would like to make is, my most important way of working was to remain flexible, and i don't see this quality in other nurseries i visit. E.g if Tom wants to carry his snuggle blanket around all day - fine. If Henry is struggling to settle and get used to so many children, than i (manager) would forget the paperwork and go and work one-to-one with him to relieve pressure from the staff and to help Heniy.
If a room seem to be having a particularly 'stressful' day, then i would go in and offer to do story time so the staff could get a chance to breath and think about their next activities etc
If a parent wants to settle their child differently to the way the 'policy' states, fine.
D'you get the picture?

So i like the theory behind your nurseries, and wish you luck in expanding your nurseries.

HTH

actually I dont think organic would make much difference to me

what I like about dd2s nursery:
uniform (I know noone else will like this so forget it)
they do lots of cooking
they spend a lot of time outside in the garden looking at leaves and just being outside
they take little trips into the town to visit shops occasionally (eg they all went to the shoe shop to get their feet measured, ahhhhhhhhhhh)
they seem to learn loads without any rigid lessons
but they have a routine that they all love to adhere to
staff are happy and smiley with some men teachers
the food is hot and wholesome and their is plenty of it!

I dont like:
the fees (it costs a small fortune)
no holiday care (it does term time only)

yes term time only and ocassional opting IN fro lunch also appeals to me

At the nursery I've just put dd down for (for when she is two) there is a giant garden and lots of outdoor play, children of different ages are given their own areas but allowed to mix under supervision (I think it's nice, gives a family feel), the food is organic AND there are chickens which the children help look after, and they garden and grow fruit and veg which appear in their meals. I think all this is wonderful.
I like the idea of (gently) discovering other languages (my ds absolutely loves the idea of different languages and begs me to find out what words are in French, so it's fun for him) and stuff like dance.
Of course a happy atmosphere and kind and gentle teachers who love children - that has to go without saying.
And I dislike uniforms intensely, both for staff and children. I think if your staff would dress totally inappropriately, then they probably are the wrong staff.

if i was a staff memebr id want one
all theat glue.

ask em!

all that bird flu aloha

I like the idea of uniforms, but not "nanny" style just simple plain colour, not buttons and bits to catch on the kids and easy to wash and easy for everyone to pick out the staff..

Ha, Cod, re bird flu, on the open day I was cooing over the chickens and the manager was explaining that they were taking advice from the gvmt over bird flu and I exclaimed, 'Oh, don't kill the chickens' and all the other parents looked at me as if I was mad, you know 'sod the chickens, what about my precious firstborn'. I thought the chickens were nice. And they never go on holiday to Asia so I think they should be fine.

I can usually pick out the staff as they are several feet taller than the kids!

id have them in white like beauticians ( lol)

who has chickens that go on holiday to Asia?

I thought the problem was bird friends from Asia potentially flying in on wild card visits here

Nah, nobody - not even a chicken - goes on holiday to E Dulwich.

bet pphs do ,dont you aloha

I'm with the Scumster, to a certain extent.
You're not advertising, are you, organicmum?

Oh yes, PPH's chickens also live in a small castle and eat very superior chickenfood, as well as taking regular winter breaks.

god not French

or yoga

I disagree about the french thing

I went to a school with a French headmistress and the first class teacher was a french assistant, we had to say grace in french and had spoken french lessons from the start, i found french a breeze although i left that school at 9 and went on to A level and i can still pretty much fall into it out now

Admittedly it was an unusual school with only 72 pupils from 4 to age 18

But that is a totally different thing, zippitippitoes. A native French teacher and assistant will of course give a child a head start in a language, whether French is spoken at home or not. What mystifies me is nurseries who bring in a 'French Tutor' for half an hour a week for a bunch of bemused littlies. Singing songs and saying simple rhymes in French is lovely, but anything they learn is fairly pointless, unless the parent/s carry it on at home IMHO.

Also, although these nurseries claim that they don't charge for the lessons the costs will be passed on in the fees.

We live in an area populated by a lot of German families. A lot of our parents want their children to learn to speak English but understand that this happens when they are immersed in the language at an English speaking nursery, not from half an hour with an 'English Tutor' in a German nursery.