You might lose your free hours for your 3/4 year old

[merryberry]

The Early Years Funding Single Formula for ?free? 3 and 4 year old childcare is supposed to be rolling out across England next month.
A statutory increase from 12.5 to 15 hours of free childcare is supposed to be on offer.

However, you may find like me that your nursery or pre-school or childminder says they cannot operate under the new code for one simple reason ? they are not supposed to charge top up fees and that in fact your early years free childcare is now vanishing. They are supposed to offer completely free places only. Given that the funding is for each hour is under £4, you can see what is going to happen in other settings like my DS2?s.

Either you pay full cost, you find/set up cheaper childcare provision yourself or you withdraw your child and get back into the home. I am spitting teeth over this.

Personally, I?d rather it was just bloody cut with a decent notice period to it so I could plan for it. Not warned in Mid-Feb by DS2?s place that they ?think but not sure that we will have to withdraw from the scheme from April, but the LA doesn?t know what?s going on but the figures dictate that if the code is implemented as written, they will go bust within 17 weeks?.

As childcare providers around the country have found, each local authority is taking different approaches to various issues, like interpreting ?when is a top up charge not a top up charge? to try and keep places open and parents in work. It?s a mess and it seems there is actually going to be a review of this over the next few weeks.

Please add yourself to this petition to add information and weight to the call for a rethink on this.

Please forgive me cross-posting, I'm popping this in the relevant pre-school topic areas.

Our playgroup is already set up to do the 'flexi 15' (about as unflexible a system as we have known). We offer completely free places and sessions up to 15 hours, but anything after that has to be charged or we can't run. Most people are taking their 15 hours and that is it.

We have our standard 2 1/2 hour morning and afternoon sessions together with 3/4 hour lunch. If the parent wants a five hour day then they are welcome to collect their child at 2.15 (instead of 3pm), but then if they are over their 15 hours for the week (ie if they had done three full days), then we would have to charge for the additional hours. It is the parent's choice. We provide the options and they are welcome to do only the free sessions.

However, we can't run at a loss. All our options were accepted by the County.

Which part of the country are you in PigeonPie, which county?

Please do sign the petition and add you comment!

But you can afford to run on the £3.xx OK, with the numbers of children you have? Phew.

I can see I'm being stupid and ignorant, but I already have 15 hours of funding per week, completely free no matter where I take it.

Why is this going to be cut?

I think we get £9 per session per child (don't quote me I'm laid up with a trapped nerve and can't think quite straight at the moment!). We have between 40 and 45 children on the roll in a small village setting in North Oxfordshire, normally 20 or so per session.

We have to do a bit of fundraising for the extras, but we are solvent, although we don't make massive much profit.

Sadly, there isn't much in the pot for staff development at the moment which is one thing which saddens me.

Guildenstern - it may be free at all the places you have seen, but many places charge top up fees. So you get the nursery bill, they deduct the funding and you pay the balance. If yours is completely free, you won't lose it.

Ok, thanks babyapplejack.

Providers aren't allowed to charge top-up fees, so they don't - around here. I see now that life is not as simple as this elsewhere...

Guildenstern I think it's just the way the red tape has been wound round and round the whole thing that is making it very difficult to interpret the 'rules'. Our County is interpreting these rules in a different way from other counties and there are also different rules for schools with nurseries attached (who certainly are charging for extras).

It is a complete minefield.

See also this thread. Some settings are indeed opting out of the scheme as they cannot afford to continue under the new system (and this after the April 2010 rollout was postponed for a year to allow councils more preparation time).

Guildenstern, at the moment I pay full cost for 2x four hour sessions a week for ds2, who is 3 next month. I though that from summer term after he was three, that with the funding in place for 12.5 hours, I would be able to use the money I'm currently spending to top up his hours to a third or possibly even fourth session. And go back to more substantial work and training in prep for when he is in full time school from Sept 2012.

Practically - I've been paying just under £1k a term for his place, and with the expected funding I'd have paid the same but got up to double the amount of childcare.

This was what happened with ds1 had 2 years ago - I'm no expert, I'm just reporting what is happening to me.

But because the free hours only attract just under £4 an hour, and our preschool in Camden costs about £8 an hour to run, they can't do the free places anymore. They aren't allowed anymore to offset the difference by charging top up fees.

So from April they would be running at a loss. They think. Camden council think. They haven't finalised how the scheme is to be run, and the LAs complaining about it have led to this review due over the next few weeks.

So I've canned the training top up and am interviewing for some slightly underpaid but regular work next week. And hope to pick up more steam from Sept 2012. Fingers crossed.

I just wished I'd known about this more in advance!

I used to be a nursery supervisor before DD's. That was almost 3yrs ago so apologise if things have changed since then.

The funded hours were for 'Education' only so you couldnt use them against the Lunch hour.
Children would come either for the morning and either go at 12 (free session) or stay on for lunch and go at 1pm paying a top up fee for the extra hour.

Pigley, it's slightly different now and we can't charge for lunch (which is what we used to do), but because we say that we can have two leaving times, giving parents the option of not paying, we can charge for that last 3/4 hour if needed. It is completely barking.

Does that make sense? (cos I'm not sure any more!)

We are still paying top ups
If they enforce the code I expect our nursery to withdraw from the scheme

Goodness, Im dreading it If I ever return. It was bad enough trying to keep up when I was there so dread to think now! Why do they insist on changing everything all the time.

So im guessing if this does go ahead then alot of private nurseries will opt out and it will mainly be preschool 9-12 jobbies that will offer it then. Surely places will be become harder to come by?

Our school nursery has been doing the 15 hours free for the past year and is continuing to do so. I wonder why its not the same else where?

ours is a private preschool offering 3.5 hours - the gov funding covers approx 30% of the bill

It seems so Piggleychez, will be very much so down here in London. Things will get tricky. I don't see how the private sector can provide the same amount of care. And the state provision here is woeful. Eg the school ds1 goes to has a nursery with 5*2.5 hour session that I can't work in, they don't have spaces in and massively cramped.

I'm just looking at the childcare sufficiency study. Age group increasing about 4% in this period. Childminder vacancies data screwed by new database. But in last period measured, 30 resigned and 7 new registered. State nurseries were about 15% of 3-4 yr old places by the looks of it. 2 private nurseries went out of business. But the time periods are all overlapping, not directly comparable.

mog and eldon, the changes are supposed to effect from april this year is all i know.

the funding at present is about 36% of the nearly £10 an hour we pay here eldon. the school costs about £8 hour to actually run. they can't bridge the gap even if they can the profit margin, which is split between the staff training budget and staff yearly bonuses.

i guess some places can manage it, if they charge less anyway, subsidise from full fee payers or other sources?

signed

DDs playschool has 3.5 hr sessions, and for 3-4 yr olds you have to pay £3.80 a session which covers the extra half hour. But this is done per day, so if your child only goes 4 days a week you still pay £3.80 per day even though their total hours in a week are under 15. Is this allowed? I am confused!!

Our private nursery isn't changing as far as I am aware.

Funding is £44.40 per week, day charges are £31 so I guess their current hourly rate is pretty much the same as the funding (£2.90 ish if child is there for the full 10.5 hours the nursery is open).

I guess they will just say that parents get 3 free sessions and pay for the rest.

The only places that are free here are the state run nurseries - either separate or attached to state schools

thanks sheep.
me too lorelai, me too! ask them and let us know!
i'll ask lenak how that works with us when things are quieter at school -first week back, it was chaos on monday.

i've emailed our private nursery as we are in same situation. ds1 is 3 and goes in for 20 hours, 2 full days (and i work those two days), so we pay for 7.5 hours, the remainder.

will be stuffed if they change this. i know it's the way of the country at the moment, but on a practical level, it makes working even less attractive.