Twins dropping nap: who's right - me, or nursery?

[CrapSuzette]

My DTs are 3.5 and have been losing interest in napping for some time. They go to nursery three days a week, and have always napped there, but gradually stopped doing it for me around 5 months ago. Which was fine - they seemed pretty happy the rest of the day, and slept a little later a night (bliss).
Around 3 months ago, I noticed a shift in their sleeping patterns. On the days they went to nursery, they would get off to sleep much, much later at night and wake earlier in the morning - and spend the next day feeling knackered, but refusing to nap for me. We felt this was a sign that they were ready to cut down on their afternoon nap at nursery, and asked nursery to cut it from the usual 45 mins to 30 mins. Nursery were very reluctant at first, saying the children needed their sleep and all the other children there still napped, even the four year olds. Eventually, they agreed that 30 mins was OK - mainly because they had to, as the children were waking naturally at that time!
Now we're going through another shift. Again, on the days they have 30 mins at nursery, DTS go off to sleep later and later at night; wake early and spend the next day (at home with me) overtired. On the days they don't nap, they sleep 11 hours or so at night; on the days they're at nursery they sleep 9.5-10 hours at night, which IMO isn't enough. So to me it's a no-brainer: it's time to drop their nap at nursery.
But nursery are making it VERY difficult. They put a huge amount of emotional pressure on us, saying the children get exhausted and should nap; that they feel so sorry for them rubbing their eyes and being so tired and that they're begging to go for a nap (which they never, ever do at home!). Yet the DTs are fine when we pick them up, and don't fall asleep in the car. So they can't be that tired, can they?
I've been very happy with nursery up until this point - DTs have been there for 2 years and started off doing 2 days a week and 3 days since they turned three. But this is really starting to make me feel resentful, especially as I'm not sure about their motives. At times, the nursery appears to be short staffed and I can't help wondering whether having all the children asleep at the same time means a bit of down-time for them (which I don't begrudge them, but surely that should be factored into staffing ratios?).
Another mum I vaguely knew had similar problems last year, when she felt the nursery was forcing her 4 year old son to nap when he didn't need to, and he too was cutting back on his night-time sleep.
I don't know what to do. The language nursery has started using is pretty emotive, too. That not giving them a nap 'feels a bit cruel'. I'm feeling seriously judged, yet I feel that surely it's healthier for the DTs to be getting a good, long stretch of sleep at night? DS has spent a lot of today in foul mood, and I'm sure it's because he only had 9.5 hours last night (we gave in, and allowed nursery to give him a nap, which he fought until around 2pm, apparently, when he finally fell asleep. Too bloody late in the afternoon, and I'm furious because I said that if they had any doubt at all about whether he needed to nap to phone me and ask me what I thought).
Sorry, this is long. But am looking for advice/perspective from other mums and nursery workers alike. One good thing: they will be leaving in six weeks to start preschool. But until then, it's an awfully long six weeks to have my kids in a nursery where the staff seem to think I'm some kind of sleep sadist, and where I'm starting to dobut their motives. And, I guess, their professionalism.
Many thanks in advance for your help...

Sorry, should explain - I gave into nursery over the nap YESTERDAY, not today - didn't make that clear in the OP. And I was only told this in a garbled message from one of the junior nursery nurses, so haven't had a chance to talk to the staff directly responsible for DS, though will see them tomorrow.

it sounds like the nursery want them to nap because it's easier for them if all the kids go to sleep and give them a break in the afternoon

this is NOT acceptable and i would be fuming if i were you.

i would tell them in no uncertain terms that the children are NOT to nap during the day. if they dig their heels in i would seriously consider complaining to ofsted. i know that sounds a bit OTT maybe, but the nursery has a duty of care to your children and they are not meeting that. they're forcing them to nap when they don't need it, which is affecting them for the next 48 hours

complain complain complain!

Thanks, Thisisyesterday. Yes, I do suspect that it's for the staff's rather than the children's benefit (but am happy for any nursery workers out there to let me know what they think...). The thing I'm finding really, really hard to handle is how emotive nursery are being, and how on the days the children don't nap I'm being told how exhausted they are, how upset they were that 'Mummy doesn't want you to sleep.' I've explained to nursery over and over again that the children are cutting back on their nighttime sleep, and I don't believe that's healthy for them and of course, it will be a period of transition for them and they're bound to get cranky. But now I'm being told that on the days they don't nap, the DTS are the ONLY chidlren awake (which I find hard to believe in a nursery of 50 children, most of whom are toddlers and preschoolers).
I'm worried about dealing with it without getting emotive/angry/inflammatory/accusational myself. Do I just say, 'No more naps!' and when the staff try to engage me in a conversation about how tired/exhausted/upset the children have apparently been, say: 'It's a transition, so it's bound to be unsettling' and leave it at that?
And there's still a little voice in my head thinking maybe I AM being cruel...

I was in the opposite position - ds still napping at home at 3, nursery insisting no other children were and they 'didn't have the facilities'. He would come home shattered but he was pretty determined not to nap and he stuck it out and quite soon stopped napping at home too. We had a few months of transitional difficulty but these days he can nap during the day if really tired and get decent night sleep too.
What do your children themselves say? Do they want to nap there? I do think that at this age they should be napping, but we've all got out of the habit of it. In parts of the US, naps are compulsory (at least the nursery has to make it possible) up to age 5 - we do seem to drop them earlier. Your place sounds unusual for the UK but if all the other kids are really napping (can you ask the other parents?) then I can see why yours might be happy to as well.
If the staff are really having to fight them going to sleep that does seem awful. this might be just one of those things you have to suck up with nursery though.

Hi Cockles,
Interesting - I've had friends who that's happened to, too! I think one of the problems is that some days the DTs do want to nap, other days they don't. I've told nursery that if they're in any doubt about whether to let the children nap to phone me, but they haven't! For example, yesterday the children had had slightly less than 11 hours sleep and a really busy weekend when they hadn't napped at all. DH and I said to nursery, 'we reckon they'll need a nap today, but any doubts just phone and we'll talk it through.' Likewise, on days the children have seemed really bouncy and had a great night's sleep the night before, we've said: 'No nap today, unless they're really, really struggling. And if that's the case, give us a ring.' Again, they don't. All they do is moan about what torturers we are when we pick them up!
It's just weird. I want to work WITH the nursery on this, I really do. The way I see it, dropping the nap can be a long, transitional process and we'll have days when the children do need to nap, and days they don't. I'm not expecting them to give it up overnight. But nursery don't seem to be prepared to be flexible. It's as if either the children nap all the time like all the others, or they'll make things as tricky as possible for us. That's how it feels this end, anyway.
Hope all this makes sense and not too many typos... trying to make DTs' tea!

ds dropped his nap jsut before 3 years old

The nursery were pretty good about it .. but like your dts he was the only one awake in the 2-3 room... it was great as he got extra attention and cuddles!! IMO thats the way it should be

How confident are your twins .. would they be able to say to staff... no we dont have a nap.. we are big girls or something similiar?

Even asking your twins to say this might give you more clues as to what is going on .. ie they might say oh but mum we are always tired at nursery
or from the mouths of babes you may hear the truth... but mum everyone has to have a nap

My children only go to nursery in the mornings, so this has never been an issue for me, but our nursery don't have any children in ante pre-school or pre-school napping (so, from about 2.6 years minimum for the younger children in the ante pre-school group), though they have quiet time in the middle of the day. DCs drop their naps at different times, of course, but I'd think it's pretty unusual to have 4 year-olds napping, isn't it? DS1 had dropped his by 3.6 and ds2 dropped his before he was 3. I'd put your foot down. When my two were still napping, I asked the nursery to keep them awake, so that I could put them down for a decent nap when they got home at lunchtime. We've used two different nurseries, and this hasn't been an issue at either of them.

DS started dropping his nap at 2y6m and we had the same problem that at nursery they'd still encourage him to sleep and then he'd be awake until past 10pm.
But we talked to them and they were fne about it, they used to take him upstairs with the older children as the smaller ones slept - could this be an option for them?
They let him nap very rarely when they literally couldn't stop him from then on.
It isn't acceptable for nursery to be putting barriers in the way about this IMO

Sorry, should add: I do think that if nursery hadn't been so negative about the children dropping the nap, we'd have ridden yesterday out and not asked them to give them a nap. So I guess giving in was our responsibility and our fault. But their emotive language has really, really started getting to me and, I think, is starting to cloud my judgement. And they still should have phoned me when DS started protesting...

I think this nursery is being very unfair, the wording and pressure put on you.

My twins are exactly the same age, so I can help you with what this age needs sleep wise.

My 2 dts dropped their naps about 5 months ago, as in they no longer nap everyday. At first they started napping every other day, and this is a good half way stage that worked for our family. It stopped them being too tired to play in pm, stopped crankiness but it meant they still slept at night.

Now at 3 1/2, they only nap IF they wake v. early ie before 7 am.

Otherwise they just dont sleep well at night !!!

I am full time SAHM so I monitor them v closely. I they do fall asleep now anytime, I will only let them have 15min nap MAXIMUM! Or else they will not go down at night properly.
Usually they sleep around 7 pm to 7 am each night.
I think the nursery is VVV unreasonable. Most friends and my eldest DD dropped her nap at 2 1/2 years. 3 yrs is v late on average. Although I have heard of parents keeping naps going if they both work full time BECAUSE they want to spend time with their DC in Evening ie THEY actually WANT their DC up till 9pm at night.

DO not let their language get to you. A relative tried to do the same to me once. Its you who have to try and get them to bed at a decent hour !!
good luck with tackling them !!

Just saw the posts from stealth, midnight and frasersmummy. Thank you! Problem is that apparently NONE of the children stay up - not even the older ones! Which I find weird. None of the DTS friends (the same age as them) sleep in the day anymore.

yes DS has now officially moved up to the older room (once he turned 3) and in general that room do not nap, obviously!
Very strange...

Picklemum: huge thanks, that was v.v helpful. sounds like your DTs and mine have been at very similar stages sleep-wise and the fact that yours have given theirs up makes me sure that ours our ready to do the same.

yeah but that's because nursery is forcing them to go to bed

the more i think about this the worse it is
a good nursery should be able to offer individual care to each child it has there. this nursery are making kids nap just so they get a break
and they are then using overly emotive and unnecessary language to you to persuade you to let them carry on

not only that they are saying htings to the kids like "oh sorry, mummy won't LET you have a sleep" which IMO is totally out of order

i would tell them to buck their ideas up or you will be removing the children and reporting them to ofsted.

what are they like aside from this issue?

Sorry thisisyesterday - caught up in bedtime! Apart from this, the staff are very caring and affectionate with the children. DTs think the world of their key workers, who they've known since they started. I have no issues at all with the way the children are treated. It's more the way the adults are! (Or rather, the way DH and I feel we've been treated since we brought this issue up). I resent the idea that the staff seem to think they know what's better for my children than I do.
Re removing them and Ofsted: they're leaving in six weeks time anyway. But is this the sort of issue that Ofsted could do something about? I have no proof that the nap is an issue because the staff like a break; just my suspicions.
Maybe I should talk to other parents. As I said earlier, one Mum of a four-year-old was having a similar problem last year, but her son has left now.

As a nursery nurse, i cant believe the staff, we are told the parents are always right where their children are concerned and if ours ask us to cut down or stop we would. Also once our children are 3 and start in pre-school we actually encourage for them not to sleep to prepare them for school as from 3 at the oldest they shouldnt need a sleep.

hi crapsuzette

my twins are very similar in age (born 29.03.07) and they no longer sleep during the day. Infact if they do bedtime is hell.

They stopped sleeping at nursery at 2.4yrs and they were the only children of that age to do so. The staff enjoyed that time with them when the other children we asleep - photographic evidence that they did some fab stuff which is easier with just two.

It got to the point that they would ring me to ask if either could sleep and this was normally when they were falling asleep in their dinner and usually after a bad night.

Then I would ask them to limit it to 30/45 mins - but this was rare that they needed to.

Hope this helps and I know where you are coming from - especially when there are 2 of them fighting going to sleep at night.

Hi there, I'm a nursery proprietor and manager. My child also attends my nursery.

First regarding Ofsted, forget ringing them, they have been documented quite a lot recently on children's sleeps. Apparantly nursery workers should not stop a child going to sleep or wake a child up even though its on parents wishes, as this is not the need of the child!

Secondly, think you should speak to the manager, you say you have spoken to a junior nursery nurse. Not being funny but they dont always understand implications behind what they say.

Just explain to the manager that this is what you want to happen, you understand that it might be difficult at first, (weve all had to look after over tired children who need one to one attention) but this is your wish. Hopefully they should be able to accomodate that wish.

At this age your children should be able to drop naps. I dont believe in denying sleep for younger children as parents have had us do in the past, very difficult trying to look after a screaming 1 year old denied sleep as well as looking after the rest of the ratio, but this isnt the case here.

I also dont believe that the whole nursery goes to sleep, its not normal! what are they stepford babies!

Absloutely second what nursery voice said. I too am a nursery manager.

Cannot see that they all sleep , very odd! We have a few of our 3-5yrs sleep on parent request but most do not. We might discuss with a parent allowing them to have a short sleep if they repeatedly fall asleep in their dinner at tea or something, as late nap might be harder on parents than an earlier short nap, but would never make a parent feel like this!

I suspect you might be right about them all sleeping to fit in with ratio's as you do not need as many staff if they are alseep (however staff member must be able to be called back if wake) so i wonder if this is how they are managing their staff lunches. Not on at all really, definatley have a chat to the manager.

I can't believe that 3 and 4 year olds still routinely have a nap!
DD is 3 in a couple of weeks and hasn't napped since christmas, most of her little mates the same age stopped around 2.5 too.
She does occasionally get a bit weary in the afternoon but the very rare times she does sleep in the day she then doesn't go to sleep at night till gone 0pm, which is no good for anyone!
They're definitely insisting on naps for their good, not the children's imo.