Sorry, another funding question!

[SmilingKiwi]

(And I promise I have looked on the government website to try and figure things out for myself!)
I am about to take my three year old for his first introduction hour at a private nursery next week, and I would just like to feel I know the workings of funding.
He is going for 12 hours a week, could you please tell me if the 15 hours 'free' allowed means we will not have to pay anything?!!
And does the government pay it directly to the nursery?
Can a private nursery say the allotment for the 'free' hours has already been 'taken' by other children attending?
ie they only allow 10 funded children within the private nursery and no more - the rest of the children have to pay.
Can you tell I'm not familiar with the UK system??

Anything else a struggling Kiwi should know within this new 'Nursery World' I am about to enter? - apart from 'its happening all too soon and I feel like I've only just taught him to walk and talk and now he's practically leaving home!!' sob sob....

Thanks so much in advance, I may post this on the preschool thread also.
xx

I am pretty sure that nurseries don't have a limit on the amount of children that can have funding. However, it's sometimes the case that the nursery place does not end up being totally free. This depends on whether your son goes all year round cos the funded places only run for part of the year (38 weeks or so I think). So the place will be a lot cheaper, at least, but maybe not free......

you can only claim for 3 hours free play a day hence the 15 over a week. Some nurseries make your child attend for the whole day which you have to pay the extra on and it is only available during school terms and the term after their third birthday eg my daughter is 3 in sept but wont qualify till january. also i think your child has to attend over 3 days. one nursery i went too will do 5 hours a day over three days but it is up to the individual nursery and some arent offering 15 hours but the old 12.5. as far as i am aware there are no limits on how many children other than staffing ratio and what is safe for the nursery. i think all the hours have to be used in the one establishment though so you cant spread it around. if your child is 3 before sept you might try lea nursery schools as some of these offer ft places. my son is at a nursery school and he is there from 9-2.40 mon-fri and completly free. unfortunately dd born 02/07 so misses it by one year.

I was asked to pay an extra £10 a day for DD1 on top of the funding from the government and
DD2 would've been charged at £30 a day for a non-funded place in a private nursery.
I couldn't fathom the charges and the manager wouldn't elaborate.
I came to the conclusion that private nurseries can charge whatever they like.
We settled on a nursery attached to a good primary school 5 mornings a week and completely funded (the school applies for the money from the govt directly).

Are kindegartens free in NZ?
Just curious as OH is very against paying for childcare and says children here go at far too early an age.

Well here's my answer FWIW lol

If a state nursery the LEA will usually say how many of the free hours can be taken in one day, the whole ethos of the EY entitlement is that it can be offered flexibly, so in theory yes you should be able to access the free hours in any combination you wish (dependant on LEA guidelines)

If a private nursery, they can clump the hours together, however some charge a small amount to cover lunches if your child is going to be their for a full day (£3-£4 generally around here) Also grant is payable the term after your childs 3rd b/day and the provider claims directly from the goverment. As mentioned the funding is available for 38wks of the year, some nurseries will spread it over a full year, which may mean that you will pay for 14wks of non funded care over 52wks IYSWIM. You can split the free entitlement between accredited providers, so you could have your child in nursery for 10hrs and with a childminder for the rest, they would both claim their own share.

So really in answer to your question I would have a look at some nurseries and ask how they work it as in real life they are all different.

smilingkiwi, I work in a private day nursery and this is how we do it.
We have to offer the 15 hours free at the point of use, which means that you can send your child for 15 hours a week free of charge. The hours are made up of 5 x 3 hour sessions. These hours can be used flexibly as long as more than 6 hours (2 sessions) are not used in one day, and as long as the nursery has the space available.
The funding goes straight to the nursery, you will be asked to sign a headcount form at the beginning of each term to confirm number of sessions claimed and your address.
The grant can only be claimed for term time, if you want your child to attend in the holidays you will have to pay full nursery prices.

Thanks for all your answers, esp PP- as that is exactly what I had imagined happening however, here is what happened the other day...

Well, after a few hours visiting and letting the kids run around- mine especially! I was handed my first bill from the nursery, stating as a three year old it was compulsory for him to do a minimum of 15 hours (I am kinda ok with that, I wish it had been my choice as I am not returning to work so was happy with the 12 hours).

The bill is for just over £900 for the first term, this includes a 'government funding reduction' of £640. So, if he was under three ie no government funding the 15 hours would have cost around £1500.

I am still confused as I was thinking the 15 hours would have been covered with no charge, I did speak to my local Family Information office, quite frankly the woman on the phone was useless and she said yes some private nurseries just charge extra on top of the free amount from the government- she didn't fill me with confidence that she knew what she was talking about- but then what do I know?!

Its a great place, and I guess our choice is lump it and pay up or they will find someone else to take his place. I am sure if I am brave enough (which I would be if I really knew my stuff)they are probably going to say the nursery wouldn't function to the standard if I was to pay nothing towards the 15 hours. If I don't want to pay the extra for the 15 hours then I should try a state nursery. Which in our area is not a choice I would like to take- and it should remain my choice not to.
Pretty annoyed (can you tell!!??) if they are getting away with something they shouldn't be.
xx

Belleymum, yes Kindy, (Kindergarten) is completely free including snacks, I think a term costs a very small sum; for the childrens smock top they wear and misc. amount of about £20.
It is a shame I feel our only option where we live is to pay for a three year old to have fun and play. However, in the past 3 or 4 years 'private nursery/kindergartens' are popping up in NZ. Private schools- most are from the age of 10/11 years old cost on average about a third/half of the fees you would pay in London---MUST BE HOME BEFORE THEN!!! ;-)
We had vowed to be home before our son turned three, now we're saying before five...famous last words!!

It is NOT compulsory for your little one to do 15 hours! And you shouldn't be paying for 15 hours as the government pays for the flexible free entitlement of 15 hours.

I say this as a nursery manager.

(Just double posting this as I have this thread topic under pre school also)

JUNEYBEAN I appreciate you taking the time to mention that, as in the letter it states; for them to be continue offering the government funding all children who are eligible must attend a minimum of 15 hours. We had initially been offered 12 hours- which I liked, but now I have to send him for a full day- which I feel railroaded into- even though I am sure he'll be fine- but he still has afternoon sleeps so a full day is going to be massive with now 5 days of sessions (4 afternoon sessions the rest of the week).

Thank you again for your replies.

I am not paying for any extra hours,just the 15hours per week, no school holidays as I am a SAHM.

In the schedule of fees, 5 sessions a week (15hours a week) it costs £1600 per term,ie if your child is not three, then this is the amount it costs you to send them for 5 sessions a week).

They then state that if your child is three, they will automatically be eligible for government funding- they give a figure of £640 for the funding.

Not sure where or how that figure is calculated.

So the difference between what they charge for 5 sessions minus the government funding amount is what I am to pay per term- £960 is the figure I have been invoiced for.

I am hoping I can talk to someone as you have recommended who has some authority and knows what they can and shouldn't be allowed to do.
I suppose if I don't want to pay the extra, someone else will be happy to and I will be asked to find another place- and there are not alot of options that I am happy about sending my son to.
Just makes me wonder why there hasn't been anybody else questioning it, then again I don't know that they haven't do I?

I have only met the other parents for an hour, so sadly can't really grill them, we don't meet up now again till September
Promise to keep you updated on my phone call to the Council.
This must be happening to others attending private nursery.

Are you lovely posters sure these rules you have mention above apply to private nurseries who receive the fund?

Best,xx

Yes, the rules apply to private nurseries. You are entitled to send your child for just the free entitlement, without it costing you anything. It is supposed to free at the point of use. The rise from 12 to 15 hrs is because the previous government increased the entitlement from 5 x 2 1/2 hr sessions to 5 x 3 hr sessions.
The nurseries are also supposed to allow parents to use the hours flexibly. In our nursery we used to offer 9 - 11.30 and 1- 3.30. We now offer any hours, with parents paying a small fee for meals.
You also don't need to use all the grant either.
Go back to the nursery and say you would like to access the free entitlement only.

Possibly different councils, but if we were to refuse care to a child trying to access the free funding we'd be hauled over the coals and probably lose all funding.

After finally getting the right person on the telephone, I had an excellent conversation with the Early Years Team at my local council.

He spent about 45 minutes discussing everything with me, I read the invoice out to him and sections of the Parents Handbook I was given from the nursery stating how if your child was three they had to do a minimum of 15 hours etc.
He knew the nursery, he knew who the owner/manger is, and he was surprised that I had been invoiced for any amount. We both hope for an admin error.

My next step, now that I feel confident in the what this free 15 hours entitlement is about, is to ask for a break down for the invoice I have been given and see what the Nursery say.

Everything you all have said and advised is correct. They are in principal charging a top up, and making the £ value of their fund given by the government the parents problem as it is not enough. The £ value is irrelevant for those only wishing to use a maximum of 15 hours a week, its not the parents fault the nusery does not get enough.
The EYTeam advisor mentioned the nursery owners are aware they run at a loss when offering the Entitlement, before they signed up for it.

He also said I should not have been charged a £500 deposit for the 15 hours.

He did mention after quickly looking at the Nursery it seemed to say that 15.5 hours is taken up by those on the entitlement. This maybe a way of saying we are using 30 mins extra a week which is therefore over the 15 hour entitlement and is chargeable- at £970 per term which is about £3 a min, for the extra 5 mins a day as they state start and end time is 8.55, or 4.05pm.

Interesting concept, I suppose they could then say we are allocated the 15 hours at no charge as the government states, but they can charge what they like for the 5 minutes a day. He (the EYteam) said - after we discussed this option, they would still have to look into the Nursery as it was totally immoral and making the five minutes a conditition for receiving the entitlement, which is against the entitlement policy- which they have to abide by if offering it.

Will keep you posted after we have chatted the Nursery manager.
Thanks again for all your advice!

Funding is always a confusing one - i own a nursery and will try to explain it as easily as possible.

Funding is for 15 hours per week in term time only. This equates to about the first 11 weeks of every term.
1st term jan,feb, march
2n term april, may, june, july, aug
3rd term sept, oct, nov, dec

regardless to the size of the term,the money the nursery claim for you is the same because it only covers the first 11 weeks.

So lets say the nursery is claimeing £300 for the first term, we divide that amount between the 3 months bills and minus it from your monthly bill (take off £100 per month) and then you pay the difference.
Same as the 2nd term where the money will be divided into 4 months giving a saving of £75 per month..... and so on.

The problems are for a nursery owner is that we have to offer you 15 hours free nursery care and you can do only 15 hours per week and only pay for food. But this is a problem for owners because we have parents happy to pay a full am session (8-1pm)and if we give you 10am - 1pm we cant fill those lost hours and we still have wages to pay! what we are forced to do is give you hours which we cant fill and we cant run a business on having too many funded children only.
I hope this explains it from a business view, but its an honest one. A good nursery which is busy will only have a few funded childrne only. With my business parents do the full sessions and pay the difference as i quoted at the top of the mail. This gives the full funding to you but also keeps our sessions full.

xxxxxx

Good on you, smilingkiwi!
£3 a minute! If only I earned that, it would make going to work much more worthwhile.
I hope you get it sorted out.

Smiling kiwi - it does seem really expensive to me!

Good luck!