Women's rights around the world - a discussion space

[Scirocco]

While we can all recognise that Islam gives clear guidance about the rights of women, there are women living in Muslim countries who are experiencing oppression and the removal of their rights. Following on from a discussion elsewhere, I thought it might be good to have a space where, as Muslim women, we can discuss our sisters' struggles in a supportive place.

For example, the state of women's rights in Afghanistan is heartbreaking. I watched some interviews recently with girls and young women who have had their educational opportunities snatched away from them.

I read about a woman in Afghanistan who was beaten in the street for going out without a male escort. She was starving and said what am I supposed to do? I have no husband or son.

My heart broke.

It's awful. Just awful. Are women just expected to die if they have no male relatives, or go find a man to marry just so they can eat?

There are no words. I wish I could do more to help.

https://afghanistan.un.org/en/263175-investing-afghanistans-women-more-critical-ever

The UN is continuing to work in Afghanistan to try to help with issues of food, education and literacy - here's a link to their site about what they're doing.

I feel so angry sometimes, looking at how power-hungry (mostly) men are twisting and misinterpreting faith to suit their own agendas. This isn't what Islam is. But because of what those people are doing, it's what the world now sees and what people think of.

It's an impossible situation. Realistically, what can the UN do? These are human rights abuses and the world sits back and watches. Though what's going on in China is almost as bad. Apparently there is systemic rape in the camps.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-55794071.amp

I'd like to know where in Sunni/Wahabi Islam (because thats exactly what the dirty Taliban are), there is permission to beat such a woman searching for sustenance?

What is the Islamic basis for this action?

There's no Islamic basis for it. They're b*stards. I've heard some twisted nonsense based on misinterpretations of hadith, but nothing actually based in good quality study.

Technically, the Taliban are more of a militant Deobandi branch mixed with tribal cultural influences, but horrible people are horrible people regardless of how they might try to define themselves. People claim that tribal customs demand the protection of honour, but where is the honour in beating a woman who is trying to feed her family, or in depriving children of education? Surely there would be more honour in helping a woman in need find food, in creating a society where she doesn't go hungry, in creating a generation of educated women...

It doesn't seem to me to be about honour at all, but about ego and power.

I have a friend who is a revert (white english) married to a Afghani. She has been to Afghanistan a couple of times both before and after the Taliban took over. After her recent visit I asked her how it was. She said it was a shame thar girls could no longer go out to study and they now have to fully cover when they go out. But apart from that she enjoyed her trip. Her in laws live in a small town/village and she said it's more relaxed over there.

Her BIL used to work for the US and had to go on the run when the US left Afghanistan. She feels the US army really did a disservice by abandoning all those Afghanis who were working for them, knowing they would be seen as traitors after the Taliban took over. They just saved themselves and made a run for it without giving a second thought to them, seeing as they didn't need them anymore. The withdrawal was a total shambles, and after all these years at war, it ended with them fleeing away and leaving the country in a state worse than it was before.

Wow, @Parkingt111 I don't know anyone who's been back to Afghanistan since the withdrawal - that actually does bring a glimmer of hope if things aren't as oppressive everywhere... maybe if there are enough people who stand up for rights when they can, there could be hope for women there again.

I've a colleague who served in the armed forces over there, and he was distraught, almost suicidal, watching the withdrawal. I still remember his hands shaking as he asked me: "Why did we go? Why did I do what I did? Why did my friends die? If this was what was going to happen - that we were going to abandon everyone in the end?". I had no answer.

@Scirocco yeah at the time of the withdrawal it was a nightmare for them. Her DH was so so stressed but Alhamdulillah her BIL managed to flee and has now been granted asylum elsewhere. Although it was an extremely dangerous journey getting out and he has had to leave his family including his young children behind.

I was actually surprised too because her teenage DD also loves it. I was talking to her and she said she can't wait to go back! It could be because they don't have any family here on either side and they have a literal village over there. My friend has health issues and struggles to look after her younger DC and over there, she doesn't have to worry at all as everyone sort of looks after each others children

I sometimes think we look at their lives and social structure from the lens of our own, which is quite different and therefore almost impose how we think they should live.

Whilst I certainly don't want to live in Afghanistan under the Taliban, talking to my friend who was quite open about her experience made me realise that the way it is portrayed in the media is also not accurate.

I sometimes think we look at their lives and social structure from the lens of our own, which is quite different and therefore almost impose how we think they should live.

That's an interesting perspective. Do you think having basic human rights is an imposition or type of colonisation? I've heard the same arguments about stopping FGM; that's it's a form of colonisation.

I sometimes think we look at their lives and social structure from the lens of our own, which is quite different and therefore almost impose how we think they should live.

This is also very true of Iran, yet our own ummah here in the UK are happy to condemn the Iranian government for what they percieve to be authoritarianism.

For the record, I have travelled in Iran and felt it was one of the most open and welcoming places I've ever been to. And the many women that I met were very happy living there. This includes friends from Pakistan who have chosen to move to Iran.

For me, I think some rights should be universal human rights, that transcend culture. Things like freedom from torture, freedom from slavery, the rights of girls and women not to be subjected to gender based violence and abuse. There may be different ways to achieve those freedoms, but I think they should be for everyone. I do, however, think that difficulties with recognising and accepting cultural differences can mean people tend to be more critical of the encroachment upon these freedoms in cultures they see as 'other' rather than in cultures they see as close to their own. For example, for all people claim to be opposed to torture, there's substantial evidence that it's used by 'Western' countries - that doesn't get anywhere near the amount of criticism in Western media as it does when it's happening in non-'Western' countries.

I think there's sufficient medical evidence to say that FGM has no health benefits and substantial adverse effects, and to make a real effort to eradicate it as a practice. Going in to a community and just saying "stop it, it's backward and wrong" isn't going to be very productive though. I think it's more effective to engage with communities, understand the role it is perceived to have for those communities and the social and personal implications of change (eg, if a woman who has undergone FGM is going to accept that this is a harmful practice, they may also have to consider and process that people they loved had them undergo it - what does that mean for them and their relationships with those people?), and work collaboratively to effect change. It's possible to show cultural respect while also saying "here is the medical evidence that what was previously thought to be an appropriate practice is actually harmful".

Do all cultural practises deserve respect? For example, does child abuse deserve respect? The cultural practise of child marriage or mutilating a child's genitals.

@cupcaske123 I was just about to respond and then I saw @Scirocco message which probably put it better than myself

For me, I think some rights should be universal human rights, that transcend culture. Things like freedom from torture, freedom from slavery, the rights of girls and women not to be subjected to gender based violence and abuse. There may be different ways to achieve those freedoms, but I think they should be for everyone.

I'm not talking about basic human rights but some cultural aspects that may seem alien to some of us in the UK but the people experiencing it don't have an issue with it. Just as an example I had an arranged marriage which I was and still am very happy with. But I have seen other people's opinions on it (on mumsnet too) which see it as a terrible thing and I can imagine some even thinking it's something they would try and save me from at the time 😂

@cupcaske123 when you say 'mutilate' a child's genitals are you referring to male circumcision? I would think it goes without saying that we are not advocating or excusing FGM.

I think it's possible to respect a people's cultural identity while also criticising practices of that culture.

Using the example of FGM, I can have empathy for people who belong to a culture which promotes its practice, recognising that it has taken on a cultural significance such that to take on board the medical evidence that it is harmful means going against years of cultural tradition and social expectations, and recognising that for a woman who has survived FGM to break that cycle when it comes to future generations may mean she has to confront and process some very difficult things. I am firmly of the opinion that FGM is harmful, with lasting physical and psychological trauma for survivors, and I would dearly love to see it be eradicated as a practice. Engagement starting from a baseline of mutual respect (for people, not the specific practice!) means people are more likely to be able to work collaboratively to consider questions like: What role does this practice hold for me and in my society? What alternatives are there? What does it mean for me to make a change away from something like this in terms of how I see myself and my society? Ideally, my personal preference would be to see it made illegal across the world, but that's only really achievable through people from cultures that have traditionally practised it buying in to its eradication.

So those countries that have banned it are wrong because we should work with communities to gradually see the error of their ways. Perhaps over many years.

That's not really what I said at all.

I think it should be illegal, not just in some countries but in all countries.

Getting community buy-in is hard work but an important part of any process that seeks to make changes like this. In the case of FGM, for example, constructive community engagement is how we can hopefully reach a stage where people aren't taking their children abroad to get it done in a country where it's still legal, due to individual and community recognition that this is a harmful practice. When speaking with people (usually women) who have considered FGM for their children, they've often said that they don't necessarily want the FGM itself but that they're concerned about social repercussions from not having it done, that they would be afraid that not doing it would mean they weren't doing what their culture viewed as best for their children and that their children would suffer more harm from not having it done. As well as making it illegal, people working to eradicate the practice need to engage with individuals and communities to change those mindsets.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cn00d2ndnlgo

@Parkingt111 did you see this?!

Having looked extensively into womens rights in various countries round the world, I have come to the conclusion that there is no religion that causes womens suffering any more than any other. The extremism that can be found in places like Afghanistan can be mirrored in places like Nigeria which has a huge extremist Christian population and so on.

The one thing that affects womens right is socio-economics with war being the very tail end of the stick. Where we drop bombs, womens rights plummet as we can see in Afghanistan now and in Iraq going further back.

The way to prevent a complete degredation in human rights is to stop bombing, occupying and controlling places.

Not sure why I just saw this now! Gosh that's terrible

I stopped believing what msm un bbc etc says years ago. Pretty surprised Muslims believe anything msm says these days!
Talk to people actually from there. Like anywhere you will hear different opinions and experiences. I've seen videos of people travelling around Pakistan Afghanistan Turkey etc plus have met many sisters from around the world and its not what they show.