Taylor Swift - The Tortured Poet's Department - album discussion thread

[OldHabitsDieScreaming]

Hello Swifties! Thought I would start a thread to chat about TS11 or TTPD or whatever we're calling it 😁Don't know about you but the excitement is building for this old-enough-to-know-better Swiftie and I'll be taking the long way into work tomorrow so I can listen to it in Peace...(see what I did there?)

So this thread is for anyone who loves TS and wants to talk/think/muse/swoon over the newest output from the hardest-working woman in music!

Personally I'm intrigued and delighted that Aaron Dessner seems to have co-writing credits on several tracks - I'm a committed Folklore/Evermore fan and more in a similar vein will be very welcome!

(Oh, and while hopefully this doesn't need saying, please don't bother posting to say how shit/overrated/talentless you think TS is. This is a fan / appreciation thread about a specific piece of work and it would be lovely to keep it that way.)

To be fair, I’m basing my opinion on multiple songs from multiple albums and then the lyrics from that song.

Also, in RL if someone was saying they were putting in loads of work into a relationship and he wasn’t making an effort I’d point out that if it’s that much work maybe it isn’t right and not, that is a line! 😂

Oh and I meant as in I came to the song with that opinion already - not that you hadn’t listened to all the same stuff

I realised it didn’t quite sound how I meant it after 😂

I think there is a nod to “you belong with me” in “the alchemy” with the reference to getting back to where she belongs

I've now properly listened to the whole thing from start to finish, without a pause. I'm definitely struck by how it really seems to be an exercise in dealing with and then, presumably, closing the door on so many aspects of her private and public life. Lots of exorcisms, it seems. And of course, an anthology is the collection of a writer's works, often published at the end of their career (or life!) With this in mind, and the Eras tour bringing all of her past albums together, I am even more convinced that she's signalling an 'end of an era', a long break and (hopefully!) a later re-emergence.

In terms of the album itself, I do love it. It's raw and yet beautifully crafted, funny and yet heartbreaking. The music does seem to take a backseat to the lyrics at times, more often in the Dessner-produced tracks, but I also love Jack's lush electro-pop especially on eg My Boy Only Breaks His Favourite Toys (so insanely catchy!) or I Can Do It With A Broken Heart, which comes off like a standard pop banger at first glance but is actually an incredibly clever 'insight' into what it must feel like to be Taylor performing live. The second half of the album is glorious for a Folkmore fan like me, and I love the little run of Mad Woman songs in the middle (I Look In People's Windows / The Prophecy / Cassandra) and the musical nods to the arrangements in the lockdown albums.

Lyrically, it's absolutely packed with pull-you-up-short moments, from the gotcha of 'I'm having his baby, no I'm not but you should see your faces' to 'You look like Taylor Swift in this light' or 'He said that if the sex was half as good as the conversation was, soon they'd be pushing strollers' (actua!ly most of The Manuscript is pretty good!).

No obvious skips at this point, although I think I'll need to play it in shuffle mode otherwise I probably won't ever hear the last quarter of the album again. Robin might end up being a skip but more because I found it incredibly moving and I can't always deal with that!

It's her most mature piece of work. Yes, there's some glorious snark and pettiness in it (The Smallest Man Who Ever Lived / Thank You Aimee) but the idea that this is music for kids is just ridiculous. Even the tongue-in-cheek 1989-style bop of So High School is very clearly about an adult relationship, and the rest is a forensic, often-painful dissection of love and fame.

Could it have done with some editing? Maybe, but I feel as if it's an album that was made with modern listening habits at the forefront - 'here's everything I've been thinking about in the last few years, the fans can take what they want from it, build their own playlists and leave the rest' I feel like she just wanted to leave no stone unturned.

I loved her music before TTPD, now I've got even more respect for her. It's a masterpiece, imo.

“Could it have done with some editing? Maybe, but I feel as if it's an album that was made with modern listening habits at the forefront - 'here's everything I've been thinking about in the last few years, the fans can take what they want from it, build their own playlists and leave the rest' I feel like she just wanted to leave no stone unturned.”

That’s kind of what I’m thinking

and it’s not that what I called “the rest” are obvious skips, there’s definitely some great lyrics in there.

its just that I’ve kind of stopped processing them 😂 but I’ll listen a few times over the next wee while and see after that.

Could it have done with some editing? Maybe, but I feel as if it's an album that was made with modern listening habits at the forefront - 'here's everything I've been thinking about in the last few years, the fans can take what they want from it, build their own playlists and leave the rest' I feel like she just wanted to leave no stone unturned.

Quoting this too. It is interesting and I did think it earlier, and some may love it but I would just prefer she put out a tight project that is strong, thematic, curated, and decisive - not meandering and 'throw everything at the wall' type approach. It sort of feels like the music equivalent those restaurants that bring out a hot stone of you to cook your own steak, and they say "oh it's wonderful as you can cook it just how you like!" and I'm thinking, well no actually, I'd prefer an expert (who I'm paying) to do it for me.

I keep thinking about how much people go on about her bonus tracks or the vault tracks being better than her albums and… I’d rather burn my whole life down than listen to one more second of all this bitching and moaning

😂

@OldHabitsDieScreaming - I respect a lot of what you've said but I can't agree with The Smallest Man Who Ever Lived being snarky or petty. Please go back and listen again, particularly to the bridge without assigning paternity to the song.

'Cause it wasn't sexy once it wasn't forbidden
I would've died for your sins, instead, I just died inside
And you deserve prison, but you won't get time
You'll slide into inboxes and slip through the bars

I don't think this is hyperbole - she genuinely thinks this man, whoever it is she's singing about, should get locked up. "And in plain sight you hid". What kind of man hides in plain sight?

I actually think that even though it's long, it's completely coherent. Unlike Midnights, which is sprawling and vague and seemed to keep evolving (which in itself is interesting, I guess) I feel like TTPD/Antho is a whole piece with a clear vision and it's easy to understand what it's about and what it's saying. So from that point of view, I think it's exactly the length it needed to be to say what needed to be said.

The only skips for me at the moment are Florida (it's just not good) and So High School. The Alchemy also isn't doing anything for me. I feel like Alchemy might grow on me, but Florida is the one where I thought, hm it's okay on first listen, oh it's quite good, on second listen, and then I never want to hear it again after that! Florida is the only song that I feel is just a nothing song, not really saying anything.

Interestingly, I was listening to Evolution of a Snake and they were saying Alchemy isn't a Travis song at all - which, listening again, makes sense. I initially thought it was about Travis because of the football references but I also thought what a sad and downbeat song it was. I feel like anything she writes about Travis right now will be terrible, like Me! Or worse.

Obviously, with so many songs you can skip loads and still have a fully fleshed album, so that's good. I found with Lover and Folkmore there were too many skips. Especially Lover. There's like five good songs on that album. But anyway, I do feel like TTPD makes sense as a whole double album experience - it's telling a story of how she has her illusions about love, fame, life all shattered and how she both is and is not the person that people want her to be. The price of fame.

I think it is hyperbole tbh and it’s just resonating with people about something different - as songs in general often do

Given she’s written songs like ATW, would’ve could’ve should’ve and the manuscript, she can and does write more seriously about stuff that’s even verging on being taken advantage of.

I don’t think if there was an actual crime happening she’d be having jibes about his suit, his height, drugs etc and then suddenly switch to that. I think it’s about him lovebombing her and then ghosting her, I think it is petty and snarky and so far that’s what I like about it.

@taylorswift1989 genuine question (as a Lover girlie) what are the 5 songs from Lover that you like? I agree it's too long, should have been trimmed to 14 tracks, but to say only 5 are decent is extreme for me there's alot of her best work in there!!!

@SandHurtsMyFeelings I see it that way too. At the start there are some sarky-take-him-down-a-notch type lyrics, but the song develops into a place of deep hurt and betrayal, edging into SA territory (not saying that happened between TS & MH, just it's a valid interpretation)

Sorry, @SandHurtsMyFeelings but I'm not keen on being told 'go back and listen again' - this isn't school.

I totally get that there's hurt in those lyrics too but 'The Smallest Man Who Ever Lived' is undoubtedly a snarky title and I enjoy that side of Taylor just as much as the dagger-to-the-heart stuff.

Anyway, on another note, particularly loving The Prophecy on third listen.

@SandHurtsMyFeelings Well MH has said he's "relieved" about what was said on the album. Which does suggest that she could have said a lot worse. There's certainly drug stuff going on, and we know he's into "ghetto porn" so I wouldn't be totally shocked if there was something that could have got him into a lot of trouble.

@SummaLuvin I'd keep Cruel Summer, I Think He Knows, Cornelia Street, Death by a Thousand Cuts, and I guess Lover. I don't love Lover, but I did at one point, and I do think it's a good song, just a bit boring now. I don't really listen to any of the others off that album.

@SummaLuvin I'm not saying that all the other songs are bad. Only ME! Paper Rings, You Need to Calm Down and London Boy are actually terrible. The other songs, like The Man, The Archer etc are just mid (to me). Her worst album, imo.

@taylorswift1989 I love Paper Rings, it's so cute and joyful. I do like the ones you named originally, but also adore False God, Afterglow, and Daylight. I just like the album. But I also think Midnights is her worst album, easily, which isn't how most fans feel.

I've got a soft spot for Paper Rings - weirdly the chorus gives me a lump in my throat, absolutely no idea why! 😂

On the 3rd day of it's release I think it's now in my top 5

My personal favs - (altho I love them all)

Down bad
My boy only breaks his favourite toys
But daddy I love him
Who's afraid of little old me
I can fix me (no really I can)
I can do it with a broken heart
So high school
The Bolter

Wow oh wow, she does it again!!

I love most tracks on Lover, only ones I'm not so keen on are The Archer and Lover.

There's rarely tracks on any of her albums that I skip, apart from Ronan from the vaults, I understand it's sad, but the lyrics just irritate me somehow.

So Matt's the one with drug problems? I was hoping it wasn't Joe 🫣 She certainly roasted them both!

I can do it with a broken heart is brilliant, it's grown on me and now is a firm favourite.

Yeah, I think Midnights is a bit of a mess, but musically and lyrically I find it more interesting than Lover. I really like Midnight Rain, Maroon, YOYOK, Question, High Infidelity, Would've Could've Should've. You're Losing Me is amazing. For me, it's more interesting than Lover. Even songs I don't especially like, like Anti-Hero or Vigilante Shit are interesting, like she's trying to do something and say something, even if she's not quite getting there.

Whereas Paper Rings is just... twee? It's just like, marry me Joe! doo doo doo!

But I agree with you that Midnights is not one of her best albums, by a long shot.

Yes, Matty used to use heroin, definitely still drinks and smokes, so other drugs wouldn’t be a huge shock. It’s not a secret thing, he’s written about it and spoken about it in interviews.

Joe as far as I know only smokes cigarettes and drinks.

Ooh sorry @SummaLuvin False God is a keeper, too. Forgot about that one!

I've been listening to it on shuffle today and making sure I really listen to one's that didn't particularly stick in my head the first time. I now really like The Prophecy, and despite a silly name "Chloe or Sam or Sophia or Marcus" is really good.

What if The Smallest Man Who Ever Lived isn't about Matt or Jake or John or Scooter or Scott or anyone else in the list of "bad guys" that everyone associates every Taylor Swift song with?

What if she's not talking about an event that happened in the last two years?

Do you not think she's come across a whole load of sleazy, abusive men that we don't know about in the last two decades of being in the music industry since she was a teenage girl?