Live webchat with Richard Dawkins, Wed 23 June, 10am-11am

[GeraldineMumsnet]

We're pleased to welcome Richard Dawkins for a webchat on Wednesday 23 June from 10am-11am. Richard is a celebrated evolutionary biologist and atheist, and author of the best-selling God Delusion.

He has presented programmes on Channel Four that range from enthusing about the Genius of Charles Darwin to arguing against religion in Root of All Evil?

His latest project is taking a long hard look at education and the role religion continues to play in it.

He wants to hear first-hand from Mumsnetters what faith and church schools are really like. How successful are they? Are they selection by another means? Are they divisive? And are they making hypocrites out of non-believing parents who go to church just to send their children to them?

If you can't make the discussion but want to contribute, please post your views here.

Thanks and hope you can join us.

Yes, JoeBauwens it is a real dilemma. A moral dilemma. Surely it can't be right that a child is discriminated against because of his parents' views. Have other people experienced this and what do you think should be done about the moral dilemma that parents are placed in, being forced to choose between hypocrisy and concern for the child's welfare.

I grew up in Northern Ireland, where the schools are almost entirely faith-segregated (there are a few integrated exceptions).
Up to the age of 16, I knew one Catholic.

This is... not healthy.

Druzhok - state schools are (of course) exempted from religious discrimination laws when employing teaching staff (and even non-teaching staff, cases pending)

Indeed religious discrimination is encouraged in the state school system where faith schools are seen as a 'good thing'.

bizarre, isn't it? You would think that of all places, schools should be free of discrimination.

ProfDawkins yes, of course faith schoolds are divisive: indeed one might say that is the very purpose of them - to divide children into those with religious parents, and those without.

meant: 'academic selection by the back door'

Typing issues.

I think that CofE and Catholic schools discriminate not only against children of other/no faith but even against Christians of other denominations. Ihave a friend in England who is baptist - they only baptise adults - and her son didn't get a place at the local CofE school as they weren't members of the Church of England and he hadn't been baptised.

re the religious interference in the curriculum; the way they are allowed to opt out of sex education seems downright dangerous to me.

It's dificult to quantify being discriminated against because most of the time it doesn't go as far as that. You just know it's not worth even applying for the jobs at the faith schools.

I have a friend who is the process of being hounded out of the faith school she teaches in. She was happily there for eight years before a change of Head meant that anyone who was not seen in church every Sunday suddenly found life very difficult for them in work the next day. She's always been open about her athiesism and her lesbianism. It's a bit difficult to tell which is of the two is the reason the new head has taken a distinct dislike to her.

My Nieces and Nephews go to a CofE primary that is anything but benign Lenin. There are crucifixes in every classroom, 15 foot long banners in the hall and even a special school prayer said every day which they can all recite verbatim.

At 5 my Nephew's favourite phrase when he was annoyed was "I'm going to crucify you"!!

Not benign at all.

Mine ios in Year 8. I have succeeded in getting him withdrawn fromRS altogether from the start of Yr 9 when he is 13 and given independent study time in the library.

If I wanted him to study fairytales I would have chosen the psychology of the Brothers Grimm.

Referring to discrimination against teachers question: there is discrimination.

My husband will never be a headteacher under the current cirucmstances i.e. he refuses to engage in any kind of religious activity in his school.

I went to Northern Irish Protestant schools - and we often had running battles with the local catholic schools. After school we would play together as our community was pretty integrated - it was school that separated us

Cauliffe, yes, what about that business of opting out of particular lessons, like sex education. Has anybody else had experience of that, and also opting out of evolution lessons?

slug

on the other side of the wall my kids went to a non-faith primary school and it drove me mad to find one or two evangelising teachers there talking incessantly about Jesus, and upsetting my kids with weird and frightening ideas. I resented them strongly - we had chosen the school to avoid that sort of thing.

The only issue I have with funding religious schools is that in some areas it seems that those schools are considered the 'good schools' and that there is competition to get into them, and the criteria are based on being able to demonstrate religious belief. Yes, I agree this is absurd. But the issue isn't whether those schools should exist, rather that every parent should be able to find a suitable education for their child and haven't been able to in the past.

There are parents and families with a true desire of to have their child educated in a religious context (Christian, Buddhist, Jewish, Islam, whatever) rather than a secular context. I am perfectly happy for those children to receive a state education as well as parents who want an atheist school for their children.

With all due respect, I think you are using the example of the competition for places in religious schools to drive your own agenda, muddling the fundamental issue of adequate educational provision in the process.

Hi Richard

I'm torn - I'm an atheist, my local school is C of E, but I strongly believe in my right to enrol my child (as yet unborn!) at my local school, regardless of its persuasion.

I want to be able to walk to the local school, for my child to have local friends, and for them all to progress to the local comprehensive.

I therefore do not believe in school choice.

Where do you stand on this issue?

Thanks

Helen

Can you at least acknowledge Prof Dawkins that many CofE schools work on a catchment area first, regardless of one's faith? I agree that one's religion should not be the factor for getting one's child into school but many CofE schools do not work like this.

And will you also acknowledge that there is NO fair system for getting into schools at present? Unless you literally pull names out of a hat there is always going to be an unfair selection process - in the area in which I live people who do not have enough money to rent or buy in a v expensive catchment area are excluded from the school. We ourselves took out an enormous mortgage to get into the school catchment area.

Yes, Lal123, I am fascinated in your story from Northern Ireland. Not at all surprised that it is the schools that foster divisiveness. They've been at it for centuries.

My husband is of the Christian faith whereas I am not. However he can't bear the way the C of E operates (in such a bullying bureacratic way) so we didn't even get married in church. I don't think we'll be sending our children to a faith school., even though it'll mean a 30 minute walk to the nearest secular school.

Gosh, yes, leaving out bits of the sex education curriculum - that happens at my sons' C of E school.

Which means that some children - those whose parents have, for whatever reason, not talked to them about these things, end up at secondary school knowing nothing (other than a brief talk about changes in puberty). Which can be hugely embarrassing for them.

Here's a question:

If an atheist school were to be set up (with or without state funding), which prioritised non-believers over believers, would that be legal?

Or would it be illegal because it was discriminating against students because of their faith?

Pofacedagain. The CofE schools round our way do not work on catchement area regardless of faith. It's church or agreement with the ethos or no consideration for a place at all.

still on the subject of schools, Prof Dawkins what is your view of the ban in certain European countries (eg France)on any kind of religious headdress/jewellery in schools? I find it profoundly worrying that even subtle demonstrations of peoples' religious affiliations are being made illegal.