Live webchat with Richard Dawkins, Wed 23 June, 10am-11am

[GeraldineMumsnet]

We're pleased to welcome Richard Dawkins for a webchat on Wednesday 23 June from 10am-11am. Richard is a celebrated evolutionary biologist and atheist, and author of the best-selling God Delusion.

He has presented programmes on Channel Four that range from enthusing about the Genius of Charles Darwin to arguing against religion in Root of All Evil?

His latest project is taking a long hard look at education and the role religion continues to play in it.

He wants to hear first-hand from Mumsnetters what faith and church schools are really like. How successful are they? Are they selection by another means? Are they divisive? And are they making hypocrites out of non-believing parents who go to church just to send their children to them?

If you can't make the discussion but want to contribute, please post your views here.

Thanks and hope you can join us.

[Spacehoppa]

Hello,
C of E schools of course vary. I went to primary which was progressive and educationally excellant but then a C of E middle school where the science teacing was not good and the RE had the biggest space in the timetable by far. It was very backward looking.

I am looking to get our child into primary next year. There is a good faith school and a good secular school in our area (S. Birmingham). I am still in discussions with my husband...

Personally I can kind of cope with her gettig one set of measages from her school and a different set in some ways from her parents. Different views are all part of growing up. The older she gets obviously the more sophisticated the views wll be. No doubt we will end up arguing...

[donnie]

So what would you say to parents of children who attend quite orthodox state funded schools who are very anxious that their child be educated within that context? I am thinking specifically of the ortho-jewish schools around my way (North London). I know for a fact a lot of these parents cannot countenance the idea of their child being educated within a non-jewish school. What do you think they should do?

[slug]

Oh yes. Our neighbhours trot alon to church ever Sunday, rolling their eyes as they go. All so that their children can go to the local school and not have to daily battle the elements in a half hour wak to the only non-faith school in the area. The joke is, the non-faith school is so oversubscribed that local parents are having to do the make believe Christian bit because otherwise there would be no school place for their children.

[Druzhok]

I suppose I meant the separation of government and religion - I have so little regard for the monarchy that I didn't even it in my definition of 'state'.

I abhor the notion that part of Englishness is an acceptance of Christianity. The church of England; it is, indeed, a special interest group. Certainly not a national faith.

[stubbornhubby]

Prof Dawkins - an angle for you tho think about that is rarely mentioned is the experience of teachers.
My wife is a non-religious primary school teacher at senior management level (head, deputy, senco level).

at that level she is excluded from over half the primary schools in the borough, as they are 'faith' schools and therefore expect their snr staff to be committed to the faith school concept.

this is a serious - but entirely legal - discrimination against her.

She has the choice of being hypocritical and pretending, or eschewing every other vacancy that comes come.

[cauliffe]

I think it's all very well and good that children are brought up by people with different views etc, but what worries me is the authority teachers have which parents lack. I think there's a lot of potential for this to be taken advantage of where religion is concerned.

[donnie]

BTW I personally believe all types of school should be state funded, religious and non religious.

[slug]

I'm an ex-teacher and know that dilema well.

[Druzhok]

meant to say - didn't even include it

[pernickety]

I was not put in the position of a dire school or a faith school. The non-faith school my child is at is good enough - not as small and cosy as I would have liked for her - but still fine. If only given the choice of a dire school or faith school I would have had to home educate or drive a long way to the next available good school because I could not lie and I could not bear to have to pretend to believe in god. For me it was not a choice when I don't believe in god or what the organised churches stand for.

[RichardDawkins]

Donnie that's a good point. I believe this is putting parental rights above children rights. I also liked your previous post you are completely right that a literature teacher can't teach Shakespeare or Milton to children with no knowledge of the Bible. This is why I have always been a passionate advocate of the Bible as literature. In the King James version, it is very beautiful literature in its own right. And it is essential for understanding English literature and of course history too.

[AlCrowley]

What I'd like is a secular school for my child but like others here, I have the choice of faith school or inferior school

Why do religion and schools need to be linked at all. Isn't religious teaching what churches and Sunday schools are for?

[weegiemum]

I'm glad you want to hear our opinions on Faith schools - I'm totally against them. I'm not sure if it will surprise you to hear that I am a fairly evangelical Christian or not, but I just can't get my head round the concept of faith being something that schools do.

Faith is personal, private, corporate in that people of faith gather together to worship, and should never be forced on anyone, which is what happens in school. I'm actually surprised that faiths support faith schools because in my opinion and experience (I'm a teacher) the faith demonstrated in collective acts of worship in school bears no relation to real, living faith.

I am all for much better, more developed Religious/Moral/Philosophical education. Teaching about faith, both the good and the bad. Teaching about philosophies - teaching children, from an early age, how to really think for themselves.

(and on a personal level, I haven't read your books on faith but both the Blind Watchmaker and The Selfish Gene were just amazing! Thankyou!)

[RichardDawkins]

What does anyone think about the suggestion that faith schools are divisive?

[Druzhok]

Yes, stubbornhubby: my husband is also excluded from a range of local schools, due to his rejection of religion. He is quite outspoken against it and has only suffered for this.

I wonder if anyone has ever taken it to court: surely there falls under the remit of the religious discrimination laws.

[JoeBauwens]

Our son is excluded from all three primary schools locally (two Anglican, one Catholic) on the grounds that we are not churchgoers. He is currently attending pre-school nursary, privately two days a week and at a (secular) state primary school three days a week. However we are informed that we will loose the three days of state pre-school this summer, as we are outside the catchment area for this school.

We cannot afford five days private nursary a week (we can't really afford two days) as I am not a high earner and my partner is in full time education. Nor are we keen for my partner to take time out of university, as I was persuaded to do this while a funding problem was sorted out - then found that I had no place to go back to & that I could not transfer the credit I had earned (still have to pay back the student loan though!)

[RichardDawkins]

And, what's more StubbornHubby I also worry about discrimination against teachers. Do we have any other teachers out there who have been discriminated against because of religion?

[InmyheadIminParis]

My daughter goes to a 'normal' state primary - i.e. not explicitly C of E school.

I was a bit shocked at the end of last term when she came home to say they had been on a class visit to the local church. While they were there they were shown the bread and wine and told that it is the body and blood of Christ. We hadn't been told that the class visit was going to take place, and so I hadn't had any chance to talk to her in advance about what she might encounter.

I was quite angry that they'd been told about the body and blood of Christ, but in the end decided not to raise the issue with the school as, at 4 years old, I'm not always sure that I'm getting a complete story from my daughter.

My question is, are there any guidelines which schools are supposed to follow regarding religious education in primary schools?

[slug]

Well round our way they've had the effect of separating the Christians (real or pretend) from the rest of the population. I worry for the children in the faith schools who are not exposed to the rich variety of cultures that populate the area. They are ghettos.

[shubunkin]

Of course faith schools are divisive. If children of athiest/agnostic parents don't go to them then you are not getting a representative mix of the population in them.

[fathercandle]

I'm very worried that the new coalition government is moving even further towards religious interference in schools (dropping evolution commitments, etc).

I'm disgusted that even at my local, non-religious state school, my dcs will be told - in a learning environment, by adults - that the Christian god is real, Jesus was his son, and if he wants to go to heaven he'd better do as he's told.

[spixblue]

On qualifying to be a teacher, my friend didn't want to work at a faith school, but she couldn't find employment anywhere else.

[Druzhok]

Any segregation is divisive. So whether we segregate on the basis of wealth, academic ability, race, locality or religion, there will be some division. Are faith schools any more divisive than grammar schools?

The bigger issue seems to be the manner in which faith schools are creaming off the more able students; it is academic by the back door.

Doesn't seem very Christian, that ...