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Webchat with Waitrose fish experts, Mon 22 June, 1-2pm

220 replies

GeraldineMumsnet · 18/06/2009 12:28

As some of you may already know, our friends at Waitrose are sponsoring the film The End of the Line, which is all about ocean sustainability and the dangers of over-fishing.

And on Monday (22 June, 1-2pm), Quentin Clark and Neil Nugent from Waitrose will be joining us for a live webchat all about fish.

Neil is an executive chef at Waitrose and will no doubt have lots of lovely fish recipes up his corporate sleeve. Quentin is Waitrose's fish buyer and knows all there is to know about responsible fishing (and fish-eating).

We hope you'll join us for the chat on Monday but, as ever, if you can't (or you can't wait), please post your advance questions here.

OP posts:
Heathcliffscathy · 22/06/2009 14:35

i agree

Heathcliffscathy · 22/06/2009 14:43

just heard from dh who made the very important point that respect is due to waitrose for even engaging with this debate.

where is tescos???

(he also pointed out that the 'scientifically managed' (as per waitroses first post) claim is tosh as all fisheries are, which hasn't stopped bluefin tuna and newfoundland cod becoming extinct as scientists have mortgages too and have a tendency to tell their paymasters what they want to hear).

Squidward · 22/06/2009 14:58

soph oyu dont have to eat it more than once a month do you?

TheUnstrungHarp · 22/06/2009 15:03

sophable, what does your dh make of their account of background pcb levels now being "very low"?

Wittering · 22/06/2009 15:16

"respect is due to waitrose for even engaging with this debate"

-- It is possible to overstate that, though, isn't it? Bcs of pressures from consumers (and the ultimate possibilities of legal/regulatory prohibitions on some products) they have to consider environmental implications of what they sell. It isn't (largely) because they are virtuous.

Plus, there is the 'no publicity is bad publicity' thing. MNers have had the words 'fish' 'Waitrose' 'fish' 'Waitrose' 'Waitrose fish' floating across their fields of vision for a few days. That is pretty good value at £1000.

Bramshott · 22/06/2009 15:34

The point is though that Waitrose are thinking about and engaging with this stuff, whereas most of the other supermarkets are still spouting bland "our consumers have told us that they want . . . " stuff.

HuffwardlyRudge · 22/06/2009 19:35

What an interesting discussion.

Dd will be pleased she can eat the eyes and tongue. Thank you Neil.

Overall, this discussion has made me realise that I don't know enough about the sustainability of various fish to confidently buy something and know it is an ethically sound choice. The farmed / toxins issue is the nail in the coffin and I think fish is now off the menu in the Rudge household.

Dd won't get to eat her eyes after all.

mollyroger · 22/06/2009 19:48

just want to share this which I have rediscovered after many years

eat them up, yum!

Squidward · 22/06/2009 19:49

I liked em, can we have Waitrose back again sometime to talk " things"?
Like when they bin those bloody green "tokens of patronisation" ( aka that charidee things) and how they make their staff so Stepfordianly nice?

MiniMarmite · 22/06/2009 20:10

Yes, lets have them back (and I'll try not to turn up 5 minutes before the end next time ) .

LupusinaLlamasuit · 22/06/2009 22:42

Well. Quentin hasn't rushed back to his office and put that query straight into his critical zone. No follow up yet.

MrSophable · 22/06/2009 23:02

With all due humility I'd like to add a couple of things to this debate and explain my misgivings about farmed fish in particular, probably unnecessarily as my lovely wife has already made a better case than I ever could. Apologies in advance for a post that will inevitably be too long.

As Quentin said the main issues were- environmental impact, welfare, and sustainability. I would add a fourth - health.

-taking the health issue first: the 2004 research of Hites et al in Science which found dangerous levels of PCB's was based on a survey of 2 tonnes of atlantic salmon. Thats a lot of fish. The conclusion that US and Candian salmon should only be consumed once a month, and scottish salmon consumption would be best restricted to 3 meals a year, is based on the US Environmental Agency's idea of what is a safe level of PCB's (its in the order of 30 parts per billion i believe). Its worth noting that salmon farmers- generally employees of a handful of huge corporations who divvy up this multi billion pound industry- have so far been unable to produce any substantive (in fact I can't seem to find any at all) research to contradict these findings. Instead they use the FDA's 1984 assessment of 'safe' levels of PCB's (2000 parts per billion). Personally I'm not comfortable with that. Quentin was right that PCBs are present in a lot of what we eat but in farmed salmon the levels are unacceptably high in my opinion.
Nor am I comfortable with a food that has been treated with marine toxins like SLICE which is required to kill the plague like infestations of sea lice which infest cages (salmon were simply not built to exist in confined spaces throughout their life cycle). I don't much like the idea of my fish supper having rubbed its fins partially off on cages treated with anti fouling paints -usually Flexgard which is stored in containers marked 'toxic to acquatic organsisms). Another survey found that parasites like tapeworms have been passed on in Chilean farmed salmon when eaten raw. And I worry about antibiotics used on farmed salmon with unknown impact on those consuming the fish.

-Environmentally: salmon farming has a terrible environmental record and continues to cause significant and scary damage to the environment. Just a few of the issues: escaped fish (millions of them) outcompeting wild fish and diluting their gene pools not to mention spreading diseases to local wild populations; anti fouling chemicals used on the cages leave heavy metal residues (a 2007 survey found extremely high levels of copper and cadmium on sea beds benath farms);farm induced sea lice infestations have very probably caused the catastrophic decline of wild populations of migratory fish ...and we can go on (all of the health issues for humans consuming farmed salmon are played out in the acquatic life found in fjords and sea lochs where the farms are based- contaminated shellfish, algal blooms etc etc).

-Welfare: atlantic salmon are a migratory fish. in farms they are packed in, often allocated the equivalent of a bathtub of water each-its battery farming. To me its questionable at best but I think its the least of the problems.

-sustainability: taking 3 pounds of wild fish and rendering it into pellets to raise one pound of farmed salmon cannot, in my opinion, be sustainable. In a world of food shortages its insane.It decreases the net amount of protein . Anchovies and sand eels and all sorts of juvenile fish are being hoovered up to feed farmed salmon. Krill too now. These populations are being overfished in a way that is not sustainable. In fact one third of the total world catch is ground up into fsh meal (approx 30 million tonnes in 2007) and 3 5 million tonnes of that goes to feed salmon.
So Waitrose support a film which is all about overfishing while selling and indeed promoting a product which drives overfishing . Its more defensible on grounds of sustainability to eat a mature cod which has at least had time to breed in its life, than to eat farmed salmon.
Seabird populations appear to be in decline, and we know wild fsh populations are suffering on a number of fronts- salmon farming has to be making that worse.
Salmon can be raised with a lower ratio of wild fish in their feed but then the Omega 3 level starts dropping as Quentin himself pointed out.

I think Waitrose should be respected if not applauded for at least engaging in the debate (cf. Tescos, Sainsburys et al). Of course they are cashing in on a 'green' issue, using the film to give themselves an edge. Thats OK- if the film has provoked any change thats good news, but they need to be consistent, not just engage in token support, or take the convenient way out of what Quentin rightly said was a very complex debate.

Farming fish undoubtedly has a crucial role to play in the long term solution to the fishing crisis but salmon farming as currently practised is not part of the solution its a big pat of the crisis.

Sorry-gone on for far too long and I haven't even got started on farmed prawns!

BecauseImWorthIt · 22/06/2009 23:08

Thank you MrSophable, as well as to Sophable. You have raised an issue about which I knew nothing. Farmed salmon is definitely off the menu in the BIWI house from now on!

(DS2 will be thrilled)

TheUnstrungHarp · 22/06/2009 23:17

Thanks so much Mr Sophable - and Sophable for raising this. I don't think we will be buying any more farmed salmon (for the environmental/sustainability/welfare issues as much as for the health risks).

Absolutely agree that, however commercial their motives, Waitrose are doing a very good thing by engaging with the fish problem in the way that they are. Hope others will follow suit.

MrSophable · 22/06/2009 23:25

Thank you BecauseI'mWorthIt.

The fish issue may seem like a bit of a side track when there are so many massive global problems, and particularly bigger 'human' issues to worry about , but overfishing is steadily destroying the livelihood of hundreds of millions of people who depend on the sea. I think it really is a crisis we should all be concerned about whether we enjoy seafood or not.

The health issues with acquaculture are also a serious concern- and one which must be addressed because farmed fish are going to be part of the long term solution. At the moment it simply gets dismissed by the fish farming lobby.

By the way there are grave health issues with many wild fish populations too- chiefly mercury levels which mostly become a problem in large predatory fish like the larger tuna species, sharks, halibut and swordfish. We simply should not eat -or catch- as many of these top of the food chain fish as we do.

But there are some forms of farmed fish which at least address a number of these problems- fish farmed in closed containment systems (thence little environmental impact), and fish fed vegetarian feed (addresses the sustainability issues). If fisheries were properly managed (which virtually none of them are) then its conceivable that the inevitable bycatch that currently gets dumped, dead , over the side of fishing vessels at sea could be used to raise fish-and prawns- in a sustainable way.

BecauseImWorthIt · 23/06/2009 08:29

There may be so many other massive global problems, but what we feed our families is a vital issue and at least we have the power do something about it.

What my family eats is a key concern to me, and although I'm as guilty as the next man woman of being lazy and relying on shortcuts occasionally, the thought that I would be feeding them something that is dangerous fills me with horror.

QuentinClark · 23/06/2009 10:53

Firstly, thanks to everyone for logging on over the weekend and yesterday and taking part in the discussion. I think that it was always going to be hard to deal with the complex issues of a sustainable fishing policy in a short web chat. This has taken us 12 years and unfortunately one hour of webchatting only gave me time to post a few hasty responses to a few well directed questions

Firstly eating fish.
There is no reason to stop eating fish - it is a vital and healthy part of any diet quite apart from being delicious. What we MUST all do is to support sustainable fishing. Wherever you choose to buy your fish from, we are just urging you to ensure that it is from sustainable sources so that we all become part of the solution -not part of the problem.

Now fish farming.
Half the fish we sell is farmed and we are very aware that farming on its own is not a solution because of the impact on wild species used for feed etc. That is why we apply similar criteria to the sourcing of wild feed species as we do to the fish we have for human consumption. We also use the waste from the fish production in the feed at around 25%. The replacement of marine oils and proteins with vegetable substitutes is cheaper but we will not do that because it is bad for the fish and eventually we want to offer nutritious fish with high omega 3 levels in the correct balance to the omega 6.

The other issue is that of residual PCBs and dioxins that are persistent in the environment following industrial activity before the 1980s. The issue is one of risk. The levels are extremely low, subject to control and monitoring and declining.The benefits of eating oily fish far outweigh the absolutely minuscule risk and in fact not doing so increases the risk of other negatives such as cardio vascular disease. This is at the route of governmet advice to eat two portions of fish a week, one of which should be an oily fish. There are many examples of how we need to balance risk. There is a minute risk associated with vaccinations but a much bigger one associated with not vaccinating.

We sponsored the film "End of The Line" just to raise the profile of the debate in this way but there is no better way to see what we are talking about than to see it yourself. I would like to extend a personal invitation to Sophable to come to Scotland and visit our salmon farming operation up there. We will pay for the flight and hotel accommodation and it would take about two days. Sophable, over to you...

It is inevitable that some will see our involvement in sustainable fishing as some sort of gimmick. I can assure you that this is not true and we want to be able to continue selling fish forever. We can use our buying effort to encourage change and that is just what we do. This is a journey towards the ultimate solution to solve the issue we all face. Waitrose is still on that journey, we are constantly debating with and taking advice from a variety of stakeholders on how to get there. We may not all agree about the approach, but from your comments, I believe we all share the same goal. All fish you can buy in Waitrose meets our four point sustainability plan including frozen.

Lastly Waitrose.com and the forum. We encourage open dialogue with all our customers through the Waitrose Forum. Just log on to www.waitrose.com, hit the "Forum" button and join the community. The team and I personally answer all questions raised. We will answer you questions as soon as time allows and there are already many discussion threads running that cover a vast range of issues. If you want me or my team to answer please use the "Food Issues" category.

Thank you for all your thoughts on this subject and I look forward to talking with you again on the forum.

BecauseImWorthIt · 23/06/2009 11:39

Ooh Sophable! Lucky you!

Thank you Quentin. Definitely food for thought, if you'll pardon the pun. Luckily for me, although we don't have a Waitrose near us, we have had a new wet fish shop just open, so fish is something we can explore a bit more. (Started on Saturday with dinner party menu of crab and sea bass - but have no idea about how sustainable!)

yappybluedog · 23/06/2009 12:03

forum here

TheUnstrungHarp · 23/06/2009 12:21

Thanks very much Quentin. I'm still rather confused as to why the 2004 study should have recommended eating farmed salmon no more than once a month if it is true that the risk is "absolutely miniscule", so I have to say that it's still off the menu in this house - but perhaps Sophable will come back with lots of reassuring information after her visit.

Fantastic, though, that you are addressing these sustainability issues.

Squidward · 23/06/2009 12:54

wow soph!

well done!

MiniMarmite · 23/06/2009 13:35

Quentin,
Thanks for taking the time to come back and follow up on some of the issues touched on yesterday.

I feel genuinely happy that Waitrose is taking steps towards improving access to all to appropriately sourced fish (and other foods). As you say yourself, there is a very long way to go.

I'll be sure to contribute to the forum - presumuably the more customer demand there is for truly sustainable food the easier it is for Waitrose to justify meeting that demand.

Heathcliffscathy · 23/06/2009 13:40

this should definitely be dh (mrsophable, have you seen his post quentin? any responses to it?), he knows far more about it than I do and will be able to ask the right questions. He was on the waitrose.com website last night posting extensively on this issue, I'll be glad to let you know his posting name as soon as I've had permission from him.

I will talk to him tonight. Is there a way of contacting you directly on this Quentin?

I would urge all mners to read mrsophable's post of 23:02 yesterday. Especially you Quentin, do let us know your responses.

I am going to cut and paste it onto a new thread as I think it deserves it. I am very proud of my husband's passion on this issue.

MiniMarmite · 23/06/2009 14:18

Maybe you should both go (if possible) - you should both feel proud. It is an extremely important issue.

Heathcliffscathy · 23/06/2009 14:21

One (or both) of us would definitely like to take you up on your offer Quentin. Please let me know how to contact you directly.

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