Webchat about educational provision for children with SEN on Wednesday 18th August 12.30pm

[JuliaMumsnet]

Hello

We’re delighted to announce a webchat with Ms Alice De Coverley. Alice de Coverley is a specialist education, equality and public law barrister. She has notable expertise in cases involving special educational needs, school exclusions, child sexual abuse and discrimination. Alice acts on behalf of children and young people, vulnerable adults, parents and carers, schools, local authorities, charities and NGOs, government departments, students, and universities. She is ranked by legal researchers at Chambers and Partners UK and the Legal 500, and is described in these directories as “very knowledgeable and passionate” barrister. She is also on the Legal Reference Panel for the Centre For Women’s Justice, and the co-author of “A Practical Guide to School Exclusions” and contributing author to “Patterson and Karim on Judicial Review”

Alice has kindly agreed to join us for a webchat to answer your questions about the getting appropriate educational provision for children with SEN and/or disabilities. As always when we ask experts to talk to MNers about legal matters, there will be a limit to how specific her advice can be, but she's been recommended to us in glowing terms and we hope the webchat will help to provide good general advice for parents and carers.

Please join us here on Wednesday at 12:30pm. The webchat will last one hour. If you can’t join us on the day, please leave your question here in advance.

Please remember our webchat guidelines - one question per user, follow-ups only if there’s time and most questions have been answered, and please keep it civil.

Many thanks,

MNHQ

@Elephantsparade

Is there a mechanism to claim back education provision youve had to make yourself when the LA provided none - as we paid for 5 hours with a tutor for a term when school coukdnt meet needs and tge LA didnt have an alternative available.

@elephantsparade and @hiredandsqueak you both asked about claiming back the costs of tuition and other services you've paid for while your Local Authority (LA) have delayed in their decision making.

My advice is to first complain through the LA channels (not that always gets you anywhere) and thereafter go via the Local Government and Social Care Ombudsman Service who are the final stage of complaints about councils. They can investigate your complaint, make recommendations and sometimes offer compensation.

Have a look at recent decisions by the LGSO here to support your efforts.

@somuchcoffeeneeded

It is devastating to read posts from parents of children with SEND. I can feel your frustration. I want you to know that teachers feel it too. *@AlicedeCoverley* I know you’re here to offer legal advice about challenging schools and LAs but the problem really really really lies with Westminster. If there isn’t enough money then the schools and LAs have their hands tied!

Some teachers are amazing - I fully agree, and of course I'm sure you're one, if you care enough to post here. However, I know so many parents who have found their child's diagnosis questioned in (mostly hidden) correspondence by teachers - all of whose children now have EHCPs, and most of whose children are in specialist settings. And that's just the extreme end. I don't know a single parent with a masking, Aspergers-style presenting child, who hasn't cried in sheer frustration over the school's intransigent insistence that flawless behaviour in school isn't diagnostic compliance, but genuine happiness - and the decompensation at home just poor parenting. I don't know a single person with a masking child who hasn't had school scoff at them, when they first said they thought there was a serious problem. Why is it that a school's first reflex response is a parenting course, or a family support worker - and not to ask what the parent feels the child needs, in terms of school management? How expensive would that be, do you think? Why is this the norm, when all the training these days explains that masking is the norm in able autistic children, and that they can be extremely good at it?

A failure to believe a parent telling you that their child has significant issues, let alone a refusal to believe a medical professional when that child is formally diagnosed, is not down to Westminster. It's down to professional arrogance. And it is every bit as much of an issue for parents, in seeking support for our children, as the funding crisis.

When it comes to failing autistic children, there is plenty that could be done without monetary costs. Allowing us to Flexi-school, for example, would save schools money and hugely increase inclusion. Yet most won't consider it, even though OFSTED are on board.

I won't comment further on this point, as I don't want to derail, but if any teachers reading this feel it rings bells? It's our normal, and teachers who do this harm our children with this attitude quite as much as the lack of funding does.

@Geraniumsandroses

My son is starting year 9 in specialist placement 40 miles away from home.

We had to fight for over 18 months to get this place. Our LA dragged their heals when issuing our final EHCP so it took a long time to get our right of appeal. During this time my sons mainstream placement inevitably broke down as it wasn’t suitable. We finally got our right of appeal and submitted our paperwork, we spent a small fortune on solicitors and expert (S&LT, OT and Ed psych) fees. Our LA backed down and offered placement just after responding to our appeal.
The whole system is incredibly unfair, my son got his placement because I was pushy, knowledgeable and could afford an amazing solicitor and experts. As his mainstream placement broke down his new school now has to build him back up again before he can even begin to start moving forward.

Why are LAs routinely getting away with failing and pushing children and their families to breaking point? They are so rarely held accountable for their actions.

Hello - going to group this with @somuchcoffeeneeded as they both relate to the important topic of the chronically underfunded SEND system.

In short, I agree that it's a system in dire need of additional funding. I agree that it's unfair that only those with money and privilege can afford the best experts and the best solicitors. There are however a number of voluntary organisations that provide free support and written guidance on how to manage the appeals process, for example IPSEA, Sunshine Support, and Coram Children's Legal Centre. You may also be eligible for legal aid depending on your financial circumstances.

I don't think it's about blame, but sometimes schools and LA make bad or unlawful decisions separately from funding constraints and legal action can make a huge difference for that particular child.

@GloGirl

My son is aged 8 and has autism, ADHD and dyslexia.

I've been advised he needs an EHCP and been advised by school that he could not get one, he doesnt really need it. At the moment he has almost no specialist provision in school aside from social support and ocassional tutoring in small groups.

I'm aware that I could apply for an EHCP myself and I would likely receive one, but no one can tell me what it should say, why I should want one, what it would ask for.

I understand the value and the premise of it but there is no one to help me establish what provisions he needs - so I can demand them. Specifics. My family are telling me that's our next fight, but god knows what am I fighting for?

He's a very bright child and his access to education is being blighted. I've spent thousands getting information and reports but I'm falling short of knowing how to help him in the next steps.

Hi @Glogirl and @sunshineandtulips, you both asked about EHCPs.

The first place to start is the SEN Code of Practice as this provides guidance on what is meant to be specified in the different sections of the plan.

@Glogirl, you said no one helped establish what your DS needed but through the Local Authority you can ask for what is called a needs assessment. Typically that should involve an educational psychologist doing an assessment to ascertain what provision may be required.
Sometimes the EP will signpost to speech and language therapy, occupational therapy and other services but not specify or quantify what provision is required (as that is outside of their remit). The LA is then, in my view, required to seek assessments from those services as well. If they don't do that this is where you can commission your own private expert assessments, depending on where you consider your child's needs are most prevalent.

For example if your child has significant sensory needs, which is very common in children with autism, ADHD, Down's Syndrome and other conditions, an occupational therapist can provide guidance on what type of support may be needed to meet your child's sensory difficulties. They should then specify who provides that support, how often that support is provided, for how long it is provided (i.e. how many hours a week) and how regularly that support should be reviewed and updated if necessary.

I recommend using experts who are experienced in the tribunal system as they will know how to write reports that meet the requirements of the SEN Code of Practice.

@sunshineandtulips

I am very curious about schools saying that my son doesn’t need an echp “yet” and I am going to have to sit back and watch him fail before they do anything?!? I don’t believe they are pushing him enough as they don’t have a 1:1 with him the whole time- but when he does have assistance he thrives (.if it suits his agenda!!) I have no idea how to fight for what he needs and he doesn’t have the language to say a what he needs help in, so it can come across as his just being “defiant or naughty” which it really isn’t- he needs a more structured environment with a set routine, staff support etc because left to his own devices his literally climbing the walls!

Hello

This is very common, particularly in LAs with limited resources. They will delegate to the school for them to provide data on what is working for that child in the first instance. There is something called the Assess Plan Do Review Cycle which schools are encouraged to follow prior to resorting to an EHCP plan. This typically takes at least six months and is more common in primary schools. With your case, I recommend that you seek support from a behaviour support therapist or perhaps an occupational therapist for them to provide guidance on whether your DS is experiencing sensory overload or anxiety. That person, with your support, can help to identify what triggers there might be which are causing your DS to act in a certain way. That advice can then be used by the school to inform a written plan that is shared with staff to help decrease these behaviours. This is not necessarily something you'd need to source privately: the school's SENCO ought to be able to advise, and if not the local authority can be asked through the Needs Assessment to focus on this through their educational psychologist.

This system is not broken: its working fine for the LAs. Parents get lumbered with a Byzantine maze of legal requirements, and attendant legal fees, and costs for experts, whilst the LA has the option to break the rules they are in charge of keeping. How so? The SENDIST tribunal successes of parents demonstrate conclusively that the LAs are breaking the law, and doing it repeatedly, and any parent who gets as far as SENDIST wins. And then the LA goes and breaks the law again with the next parents, as the SENDIST decisions are not binding except on that particular case. But not before spending taxpayer pounds on hiring legal assistance including barristers and silks to defend their position against often unrepresented parents. And the parents STILL win! So, here's my question: at what point are the LAWYERS who defend and assist the LA culpable, and vulnerable to ethical reprimand, for assisting the LAs with a system that shows evidence of gross breaches of public trust, and abusive misconstruction of discretion? Relatedly, at what point do the lawyers refuse to assist the LAs with defending their indefensible positions? At what point is the lawyers' position untenable -- or is the answer 'never'. Because if the answer is 'never', then that's about when we'll see the needed breeze of justice blow through this corrupt, backward abuse of gov't discretion. @somuchcoffeeneeded

@danni0509

Hi.

What advice can you give about schools making ds stay on part time illegal timetables? (Against my wishes)

We had it at his old school (mainstream) in reception, year 1 and year 2. Hours were usually 2.5/3 hours a day. With a small period of full time hours before they cut him back down due to his behaviour. Complained numerous times, contacted LA no one interested. Got sendiass involved & Ipsea who sent warning letters. Head of send for our local authority had to contact the school in the end after I phoned her / emailed her my complaints. He went back up to full time then he left a few weeks later to go to a specialist school.

He started at a special school in may and they are doing the exact same thing it’s a 35 minute drive to his school and he’s only allowed to stay 2.5 hours. He was on 4 hours a day to begin with but they decreased it due to his behaviours. They know I’m not happy with this arrangement, he’s due back in 3 weeks and they want to continue part time.

(Ds has autism / adhd / challenging behaviour to add, has had an ehcp for years)

He is nearly 8 and never received full time education. I’m unable to work etc.

Would appreciate any advice, thanks x

Hi danni0509

Part time timetables can often be discriminatory. I would be concerned if this is being used as anything more than a short term solution. It is possible the school is breaching its obligations under the Equality Act 2010. In particular, under Section 15 (discrimination arising in consequence of the pupil's disability) and also Sections 20/21(a failure to make reasonable adjustments).

The school would need to show that this treatment, which appears to be unfavourable, is a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim.

Because your child has a EHCP I would recommend an emergency review/ early review of his plan as it sounds like the provision in his EHCP is no longer meeting his needs.

Write to the most senior person at your Local Authority, usually the director of Children's Services, to ask for an early statutory review. The LA may refuse and then you can either then wait for an annual review, gather further evidence for the need for an early review and ask again, or if appropriate ask for a reassessment of your child's needs.

Finally, you can bring a claim in the First Tier Tribunal for disability discrimination, which may apply in this case.

@perfectstorm

Hi Alice, and thank you for doing this.

In the years I've been on Mumsnet, there's a real pattern. Women post that their child is really struggling and in a very bad way when at home, but totally fine in school. Over and over, people say that their child's school school insist all is going well there, and parenting courses are then suggested. The parents question themselves, do the courses to no avail, and while their gut tells them there's something really serious going on, at the same time they worry that the school's right and 'it must be mum'.

Almost always, things reach a crisis and the child becomes so overwhelmed and overloaded that they lose it in school, or an acute mental health crisis develops, and the problems are suddenly obvious to everyone. But to an extent it's too late, because by then the child has already been harmed by all the lost years. An EHCP assessment gets underway, because the child's disability has stopped only harming them, and started to impact people outside the family, and the assessments almost always find significant unmet needs, and mental health damage that could have been reduced or even avoided had anyone listened in time.

Everyone always says early intervention is key, but nobody with any clout listens to the mother until the intervention is, by definition, late and triggered by the damage that's by now been done coming out in the child's behaviour outside their own home.

So as someone to whom the above must be as familiar as it is to us: if you could go back in time and speak to parents when they first start trying to tell the school, what would you tell them to do? As people who, individually, can't change the system in time for that child, what can they do within it as it presently stands, to try to get their child effective help before terrible damage is done?

This is such a good question. This comes up in pretty much all of my cases.

I routinely see parents telling me that they are having tremendous difficulty with their child once they come home from school. I have heard it described by one of my clients of the 'coke bottle effect'. What is often also misunderstood by schools and local authorities is the effect of masking, which is something that many young people with neurodiverse conditions do.

Where I would recommend getting further advice is from social care. The SEND regulations and the Code of Practice (9.62) require EHCP plans to include the child's social care needs and healthcare needs which relates to their SEN.

A social care assessment which you can request from the local authority (often online) can be used to determine whether additional help is required at home. This does not mean that any of the parents that I've worked with are not doing an incredible job at home. But there may be additional services that the local authority has not yet told you about, for example respite, short breaks, community support, that may assist.

It is also helpful in tribunals for parents to draft their own statement about their experiences of their child from Monday to Sunday, and to serve that as a witness statement in the proceedings. This should emphasise the impact of being at school during the day on the child's behaviours and compliance at home. This will sometimes deteriorate throughout the school week. Good educational psychologists (EPs) can also help advise on masking in children with SEN in a way that schools can then use in how they meet that child's needs in the classrom.

A difference in how well the child presents at home and at school can also be a sign of a failure to generalise skills. Again, this is something that can be discussed with the EP.

@Nousernameforme

What can you do when the EHCP says they need a specialist school but all the local ones say they can't meet needs despite them having children with very similar needs already in them? We had months of trying to find a school and now receive private tutoring through a charity.

Hi Nousernameforme

The answer to this question depends on the type of school you're trying to get your child into. In short this is not the end of the road. You can still get your child into that school, provided you meet a number of conditions.

If it is a 'qualifying' school then the Children's and Families Act 2014, Section 39(3) applies. There is a presumption that the parents' preference prevails unless the Local Authority can demonstrate one of three things: 1) That the school is unsuitable to meet the age, ability, aptitude and special educational needs of the child concerned. 2) That compliance with the preference would be incompatible with the provision of efficient education for others or 3) compliance with the preference would be incompatible with the provision of resources.

A 'qualifying' school are those listed within the Children's and Families Act, Section 38(3). This means a maintained school, a maintained nursery school, an academy, an institution within the further education sector in England, a non maintained special school or an institution approved by the Secretary of State under Section 41 (independent and special post 16 institutions).

If the school of your choice is not on this list, often that means an independent mainstream school or a special school that is not on the Section 41 list, which can be found online. There is no statutory presumption that the school will be named as parental preference, rather the LA or the Tribunal must only comply with the Education Act 1996 Section 9 and have regard to the general principle that pupils are to be educated in accordance with the wishes of their parents.

The Tribunal/LA will also ask, for this type of school, whether the benefits of the placement preferred by the parents outweigh the extra costs of it to the public purse. In carrying out this balancing exercise, all benefits (including education, social care and health benefits) must be taken into account. This is a good area to direct your experts to.

Thank you @AlicedeCoverley

@Thepathofleastresistance

I am also ADHD so I find all of this extremely overwhelming and anxiety inducing and trying to manage it in a way that does not alienate the school is quite challenging...

Hi,

A few of you are parents who have their own needs, including autism, anxiety and ADHD. This is actually surprisingly common. A number of parents I work with have worked out that they themselves are neuro-diverse as a result of obtaining their child's diagnosis for a similar condition. This can be both illuminating and discombobulating.

This is something that Tribunals are mindful of and you can in the application form for the appeal include details of your own needs and what adjustments may be required e.g. an interpreter or regular breaks. Tribunals, in my experience, do recognise how overwhelming the whole process is.

It is also something that lawyers are becoming better aware of, in particular how anxious parents are of navigating this process. They can then take this into account in how they advise you in conferences. I always ask whether parents would like me to follow up our conference with a to-do list in writing, for example. I would also recommend that you take a friend/family member to meetings, so that they can keep a note of what is being said.

Schools and Local Authorities will arguably also have a duty to you as a service user under Section 29 of the Equality Act to ensure they do not discriminate against you in how they provide their service to you. This will include for example ensuring deaf parents have an interpreter at annual reviews, and ensuring that papers are provided in an accessible format. I recognise that this does not always happen, and it can feel like you are at sea with it all. Keep records!

The final thing I would say on this is that parents I work with do often forget to carve out time for themselves. I know this is easier said than done, but if you are struggling, do seek help from your GP who can recommend, for example, counselling or other therapeutic support.

Local and online parent groups like these are also incredibly helpful. Just knowing you are not alone and you are not going mad can be invaluable.

@10brokengreenbottles

Thank you for kindly offering your time to answer our questions.

DS1 (complex MH problems and some physical medical needs) has a comprehensive EOTAS package including home tuition and other provision such as therapies.

He excels at maths and science. If he were in school science lessons would include practicals it obviously isn't possible to deliver at home. So far practicals at home with the science tutor have been limited to things such as circuits, however I feel DS1 is missing out on opportunities normally available to his peers, which is only going to be magnified as he becomes older.

Do you think it is feasible for provision for practical science experiments to be included in section F as part of an EOTAS package? And have you ever managed to secure such provision, or know anyone who has?

I recognise your username from the SEN boards and the useful advice you give to other users.

You asked a question about home education and whether or not science experiments can be delivered in the home.

I sympathise that the science experiments currently being received are limited. However the local authority will be mindful of health and safety in the home (particularly with the more explosive end of science experiments!). You would need an appropriate and safe venue for science experiments. The local authority may, or you may, be able to negotiate time in a school laboratory after hours or in a pupil referral unit, or a similar setting. However, deciding on what type of environment would be suitable and what type of practicals will be workable, will depend on the nature of the child's special educational needs, which you have explained includes complex mental health and physical medical needs. You can seek advice from an EP (and possibly an OT) about how this could work to ensure that everyone is kept safe and enjoying themselves.

This does sound workable, if not novel. But you will need to be creative with how this is achieved. This provision can then be built into section F of the EHCP.

@throttlebottom

We are appealing against the decision of our LA to not grant an EHCP; we are waiting for the Tribunal Hearing in the autumn. All of his referrals over the last two years have been cancelled/delayed due Covid (OT/Paeds/CAMHS). To get any up to date professional reports I think I will have to pay, but we have very little money available. Can you tell me what reports to prioritise, or what will carry most weight?

I really sympathise with you - so many of my clients have had cancelled referrals or delayed assessments. It is unsettling for sure.

By way of a silver-lining at least, the Tribunal system is now online due to Covid (with no sign of returning to in person hearings at least for the time-being). This makes it MUCH easier for experts to attend hearings, even if just for a short period. It also means that fewer hearings are being delayed (prior to Covid over 50%, if not more, of my cases a week were being vacated due to lack of court space/judicial availability).

In terms of what expert to prioritise, it will depend on what you are trying to achieve. What is the main thing that you think your child needs? Is it therapy? Is it direct work on their handwriting? Is it a 1:1? Is it a behaviour plan? That can help you work out what expert is the main one you need, if you are in the difficult position of having to pick only one or two.

It might that, for instance, the main block to your child's education is your child's language needs. They might be struggling to communicate their wishes and feelings, and this is what then causes behavioural difficulties. For this example, I would prioritise the speech and language therapist (SLT) during the tribunal process, so that you can obtain the right level of therapy (for instance, direct or an embedded approach overseen by a SLT).

In another case, your child might be so overloaded by their sensory needs (noise, movement for instance) that they can't get into or stay still a classroom easily. Or they might really struggle to get their thoughts on paper because their handwriting is a huge barrier for them. You might then think that occupational therapy is the main person to prioritise.

If you are trying to get your child into a specialist school (rather than a mainstream school) then an educational psychologist will be central.

In short, it will really depend on what you are trying to achieve. I hope this helps!

@SetSail

Can an LA refuse to pay at least some percentage of a private school's fees if that school is listed as an option on our EHCP preference form? We have also listed an SRP in a mainstream school. There are no other options for our LO, who has complex needs. We are expecting to go to tribunal as the SRP is vastly oversubscribed.

Thank you for this question. If the school ends up named in section I, then the LA will be responsible for the fees - this is the law per the Children and Families Act 2014, s63. They cannot refuse to pay fees in those circumstances.

However, on occassion (as a negotiation tool) a parent may offer to pay part of the preferred indie school fees in order to equalise the cost with the cost of a school offered by the LA. In legal terms, it is actually not yet clear whether or not such an agreement is enforceable or lawful.

Usually an SRP (a specialist resource provision) is less expensive than an independent school, but costs can add up once you add in the cost of, say, a 1:1 or therapies (which may be included in the fees for the independent school already).

It is often also worth carrying out Freedom of Information Act requests of the schools directly to find out what the true cost of the placements are, in order to support your argument that your choice of school is more cost-effective. See my answer to @Nousernameforme

@ArianaDumbledore

Hi Alice,

My son attends an independent specialist school 50 miles away which we won via tribunal. I am anxious that at annual review the LA will seek to move him, I'm guessing they'd name a resource provision within a mainstream. I know we'd have rights to appeal, but what would actually happen? Would we have to send him to the LA choice whilst waiting for the appeal hearing?
Or is there something that stops LAs doing this as it would be hugely disruptive and we could potentially lose the school place waiting for the appeal?

Many thanks

Congratulations on achieving a place at an independent special school at Tribunal, that is no easy task. I understand the worry about being moved. But, the LA would have to have a pretty good reason to seek to now move him.

If a child already attends a school then there is a case that really helps. W v Gloucester CC [2001] EWHC (Admin) (see paras 19, 21, 25). This emphasises that the LA (and the Tribunal if appealing) must evaluate the difficulties for the child in moving from the school in which the child currently is. I would keep him there, rather than move to the LA choice of school whilst waiting for the appeal hearing to complete.

It is a good idea to get the school he is currently at on side, should the LA say that he should now change schools. They can provide reports on how well he is doing and how unsuitable a resource provision would be (if that is correct). Resource provisions can be really good for some children, especially those who will benefit from transitioning back into a mainstream, larger school environment, and who want to access a higher level academic environment. For others though, that many transitions back and forth to a big school, and the feeling of "otherness" is really not appropriate. It is useful to get an educational psychologist to comment on the suitability of the placement if this happens. And visit the schools so you can make an informed choice too.

Thanks very much, @AlicedeCoverley!

@notaflyingmonkey

I think more needs to be done to expose the practice of off rolling.

DS has ASD. His needs and his EHCP weren't being met at 6th form. They expected him to be able to seek out and articulate the support he needed, which was impossible for him to do. So at the start of the second year of A levels he was off rolled as it became apparent to them that he wasn't going to pass his exams.

We were left with a distraught teenager, who because of the timings, couldn't get in to another college to finish his second year. We ended up paying for private tutors, and he passed his exams, but the whole experience left him an emotional wreck who was at times suicidal.

What he was put through was disgraceful.

I wanted to group this one together with the question from @drspouse about the DC in the PRU as they both touch on the theme of 'off-rolling'.

Off rolling is something that Ofsted is currently concerned with during inspection. They have been doing a lot of analysis of this (unlawful) practice, which you can see here. You can alert Ofsted to this school's practice (though they won't investigate individual issues). They may then use this intelligence in future inspections.

I am so sorry to hear about the dreadful impact that this had on your son. It may have been that he was unlawfully discriminated against too. You may be in time for a discrimination claim (6 months from the date they off rolled him). You could pursue this route and seek reinstatement, depending on the circumstances.

Regarding @DrSpouse's question - there might be specialist resource units, or "hubs" attached to a mainstream school that strike the right balance. A number of these will be specialised in dealing with children who have previously been excluded from school (often because of their needs not being met, in my view).

I have written a book about school exclusions which may help others.

[quote fhammock]@perfectstorm I agree.

I had concerns about DS when he was about 2, his nursery had concerns when he was 3. Age 4 we saw an early help worker from the council which was meant to start the assessment process, but didn't. After lots of messing about and long waits he was diagnosed with ADHD aged 8 but discharged there and then. School weren't helpful- it took 3 years (and me having to make a bit of a pain of myself) to get them to apply for an EHCP for him. We were eventually able to get back in to the system to be allowed an appointment, he's now 12 and on the (2-2.5 year) waiting list for an ASD assessment. He's now medicated which does help at school, but it took 2 appointments, questionnaires etc and around 2 years of waiting to get the first prescription. Meanwhile he began self harming, having meltdowns at school, and became violent towards me, but all CAMHS could do was give us the details of a volunteer counselling service- who were so overwhelmed with people referred via CAMHS that they had a huge waiting list! 🤦‍♀️ And in comparison to many others, we've had it easy! None of it is acceptable, the whole thing is so frustrating. [/quote]
I wanted to add my views on this one, as it is something I see time and time again. It is an unbearably frustrating process. I honestly do not know why it often takes CAMHS so long to act, and why help is not provided at the earliest stages, rather than at the point the young person is suicidal. The waiting list for CAMHS is absurd - sometimes 18-months to 2 years for CBT. That does not help in the here and now.

There are some good resources out there (Mind UK etc) for schools. Much more should be done at the early stages. Also more questions should be asked by professionals. Why is a child acting out? What are they trying to communicate? What isn't working here? Is this the right setting for this child?

I will need to head off now, but thank you so much for all of your questions. I have tried to answer as many as possible in the time that I have.

I do read the SEN boards (and sometimes contribute!) and the advice that you give eachother is really great. Talking to eachother is really important. It is also a good way to share names of experts, specialist schools, etc.

Thank you so much to MNHQ for having me today. Excellent biscuits and coffee, to be expected!

Best of luck all on your journeys.

Thank you so much, @AlicedeCoverley.

Thank you so much, we're fortunate DS3s independent school are supportive so hopefully we can fend off the LA!

I couldn't think of a legal question, but this has been fascinating reading! Thanks very much for this, @AlicedeCoverley!

Thank you @AlicedeCoverley for taking the time to respond to my/our points. My understanding from reading up on off-rolling at the time was that it isn't actually illegal for a 6th form college to do it, only a school.

Thank you so much to Alice for taking the time (and keeping going far beyond her hour) to answer these questions so thoroughly - and to you all for joining!

@notaflyingmonkey, I think everyone's bound by the Equality Act, no? When disability is the issue, and they've failed completely to provide the support and adjustments (especially in a case like yours, where his EHCP said that they had to) then they're bound by their duties to a disabled student, regardless of what form the provision takes, aren't they? Especially if they're public sector, when my understanding is that the Public Sector Duty of Equality kicks in, too.

It's a shitty gap, though. When you compare what a standalone 6th form can get away with, with the duties schools have to 6th formers - eg the St Olave's scandal - and, as with almost all gaps in protection under the law, you only learn they exist after you've fallen into them, by which time it's a tad late.