Webchat about educational provision for children with SEN on Wednesday 18th August 12.30pm

[JuliaMumsnet]

Hello

We’re delighted to announce a webchat with Ms Alice De Coverley. Alice de Coverley is a specialist education, equality and public law barrister. She has notable expertise in cases involving special educational needs, school exclusions, child sexual abuse and discrimination. Alice acts on behalf of children and young people, vulnerable adults, parents and carers, schools, local authorities, charities and NGOs, government departments, students, and universities. She is ranked by legal researchers at Chambers and Partners UK and the Legal 500, and is described in these directories as “very knowledgeable and passionate” barrister. She is also on the Legal Reference Panel for the Centre For Women’s Justice, and the co-author of “A Practical Guide to School Exclusions” and contributing author to “Patterson and Karim on Judicial Review”

Alice has kindly agreed to join us for a webchat to answer your questions about the getting appropriate educational provision for children with SEN and/or disabilities. As always when we ask experts to talk to MNers about legal matters, there will be a limit to how specific her advice can be, but she's been recommended to us in glowing terms and we hope the webchat will help to provide good general advice for parents and carers.

Please join us here on Wednesday at 12:30pm. The webchat will last one hour. If you can’t join us on the day, please leave your question here in advance.

Please remember our webchat guidelines - one question per user, follow-ups only if there’s time and most questions have been answered, and please keep it civil.

Many thanks,

MNHQ

@Bangkokbaby

Can I check, will this be focusing on the English legal and schooling system? I'm in Scotland and we have a different system here.

Hi @Bangkokbaby - I'm afraid Alice's expertise does not cover Scotland, sorry! We'll make this clearer in the OP next time.

@JuliaMumsnet If we could at some point have someone to cover the law in Scotland, NI and Wales (? Not sure if education is devolved there?) I'm sure it would be hugely appreciated.
Thank you 🙏🏼

What can be done to address the problem of autistic children whose parent/s are also autistic and who experience extra difficulties when trying to access help for their children?

The system is hard enough for neurotypical parents to navigate, but autistic parents face even more challenges. Is anyone even aware of this problem?

@hiplip

What can be done to address the problem of autistic children whose parent/s are also autistic and who experience extra difficulties when trying to access help for their children?

The system is hard enough for neurotypical parents to navigate, but autistic parents face even more challenges. Is anyone even aware of this problem?

I don't think I'm on the autism spectrum but I think I might have ADHD or dyspraxia. I get so muddled and anxious when trying to deal with school and I feel i sometimes let my son down with my disorganisation and nerves. We have recently found an independent advocate for DS and it has taken a load of pressure off me. Might be worth looking into?

Sorry to derail the thread!

What can you do when the EHCP says they need a specialist school but all the local ones say they can't meet needs despite them having children with very similar needs already in them?
We had months of trying to find a school and now receive private tutoring through a charity.

Hi Alice,

My son attends an independent specialist school 50 miles away which we won via tribunal. I am anxious that at annual review the LA will seek to move him, I'm guessing they'd name a resource provision within a mainstream. I know we'd have rights to appeal, but what would actually happen? Would we have to send him to the LA choice whilst waiting for the appeal hearing?
Or is there something that stops LAs doing this as it would be hugely disruptive and we could potentially lose the school place waiting for the appeal?

Many thanks

We are almost bankrupting ourselves paying for additional learning support (twice a week) and private psychiatrist/education psychologist assessments over the last few years to diagnose my child (adhd/ASD). The school he attends privately have told us not to bother with ECHP and that he wouldn't get one as 'high functioning' and that it might affect his secondary choices as mainstream don't like them... 🙄 We are hoping for him to be able to go on to the school his prep is connected to...

My first question is - is this true? If his education is being supplied and he is doing ok in that sense, is an ECHP out of the question support wise? I am out of work and the financial strain is intolerable.

Second question- the learning support assistant is supposedly following the Ed psychologist report in assisting his needs. And yet I have NO idea what they are doing from week to week. Top line reports at end of term and I feel completely in the dark. I am concerned that he needs OT for interoception / sensory issues and greater focus on social emotional skills as this is where he struggles. I have written to her again and again but I still don't feel I am being listened to.

I guess I am asking what you would do here - a new head of SEN is starting this term, but teachers want me to go through them... I want to add in OT but we can't afford to and can't even afford the leaning support we are getting... I am worried about the cumulative affect on his mental health as he doesn't have many friends and is becoming quite avoidant. What can I expect from the school/insist upon - especially as independent sector. Is EHCP a waste of time? Will I get any funding if we can be seen to afford a certain amount already? It's all very confusing.

I am also ADHD so I find all of this extremely overwhelming and anxiety inducing and trying to manage it in a way that does not alienate the school is quite challenging...

@Thepathofleastresistance

I am also ADHD so I find all of this extremely overwhelming and anxiety inducing and trying to manage it in a way that does not alienate the school is quite challenging...

This is exactly how I feel. How do you assertively ask for (demand?) what your child needs, and still stay on friendly terms with school?

Thank you Alice for doing this. My son is 10 years old and about to enter year 6. He has always been behind but each year it gets worse. He is now reading at year 2 level and maths isn't much better. He was diagnosed as dyslexic a couple of years ago but teachers etc all agree there is some other sort of learning difficulty. He has been assessed by an Ed psych and paediatrician who can't agree on a diagnosis but are still looking into things but this has been going on for three years now! We have recently paid privately but also they said although there are many autistic traits he doesn't meet the threshold. This however was done via zoom which didn't give a very clear picture and also the questionnaire the teacher filled in gave different responses to us (something I thought was common with asd). We don't know where to go from here. He desperately needs extra help but can't get any without a diagnosis and all the time he is falling further behind his peers. I am dreading him going to high school next year. What can I do to help him?

@ArianaDumbledore

Hi Alice,

My son attends an independent specialist school 50 miles away which we won via tribunal. I am anxious that at annual review the LA will seek to move him, I'm guessing they'd name a resource provision within a mainstream. I know we'd have rights to appeal, but what would actually happen? Would we have to send him to the LA choice whilst waiting for the appeal hearing?
Or is there something that stops LAs doing this as it would be hugely disruptive and we could potentially lose the school place waiting for the appeal?

Many thanks

@ArianaDumbledore Hi.

Slightly off topic but wanted to ask. What is your sons travel times with this school being 50 miles away?

Looking into something similar. Ds is 18 miles away currently.

@Nousernameforme

What can you do when the EHCP says they need a specialist school but all the local ones say they can't meet needs despite them having children with very similar needs already in them? We had months of trying to find a school and now receive private tutoring through a charity.

We had this exact problem.

Ds has to go to a school out of borough.

Test

We are appealing against the decision of our LA to not grant an EHCP; we are waiting for the Tribunal Hearing in the autumn. All of his referrals over the last two years have been cancelled/delayed due Covid (OT/Paeds/CAMHS). To get any up to date professional reports I think I will have to pay, but we have very little money available. Can you tell me what reports to prioritise, or what will carry most weight?

It is devastating to read posts from parents of children with SEND. I can feel your frustration. I want you to know that teachers feel it too. @AlicedeCoverley I know you’re here to offer legal advice about challenging schools and LAs but the problem really really really lies with Westminster. If there isn’t enough money then the schools and LAs have their hands tied!

Hello! Alice has arrived into the office and we're just setting her up with coffee and biscuits. In the meantime, a short but important note:

Before Alice begins, we just need to say that while of course she has great legal expertise, nothing she says here should be taken as definitive advice on your particular case - it's intended to assist MNers in their individual circumstances but please seek independent legal advice where necessary.

Hi how do I join the web chat?

@somuchcoffeeneeded I don’t wish to get into an argument or anything and I imagine that’s true for some schools, but not all, ds old school received a lot of money for ds, the la even paid an additional £500 a week for his very own specialist teacher, they still didn’t want him full time just wanted to use the specialist teacher for the afternoons to use with other children and still sent him home at lunch time, the la were rightfully fuming when I told them, they did some investigating and found what I was saying true (I have no reason to lie!)

His current school (expensive fees) are doing similar.

Sometimes no matter how much money is provided the schools just don’t want the problem.

(Sadly my experience)

Hello, it's wonderful to be here at MNHQ. Thank you for all your thought provoking questions. I'll do my best in the hour to get through as many of them as I possibly can.

[quote danni0509]@somuchcoffeeneeded I don’t wish to get into an argument or anything and I imagine that’s true for some schools, but not all, ds old school received a lot of money for ds, the la even paid an additional £500 a week for his very own specialist teacher, they still didn’t want him full time just wanted to use the specialist teacher for the afternoons to use with other children and still sent him home at lunch time, the la were rightfully fuming when I told them, they did some investigating and found what I was saying true (I have no reason to lie!)

His current school (expensive fees) are doing similar.

Sometimes no matter how much money is provided the schools just don’t want the problem.

(Sadly my experience)[/quote]
My son's journey is a minimum of 1hr15, can be more. We hesitated to even view it but we had looked at everything else that was vaguely possible. He hasn't struggled with the journey at all, and is chomping at the bit to go.
My only concern is the LA snatching it away as its very £££££

@AvaCallanach

Hi Alice Do you think that emotionally based school avoidance is finally being a little better understood and better supported since covid? At least at the local authority level? My LA has recently produced helpful guidance, very long overdue.

Part of the issue, it seems to me, has been that anxiety based disorders (selective mutism is another one) that don't tend to cause the school a huge amount of bother but have an enormous impact on the young person often don't seem to be a priority for referral eg to educational psychologists.

How would you advise parents advocate for their young person who has an anxiety based issue that the school doesn't seem to want to refer to specialists?

Hello Ava

During COVID, the issue of school-based avoidance has become more prevalent - it comes up in a lot of my cases. Experts appear to be better able to detect the difficulties that are associated with school-based phobias and avoidance. In addition to this, some young people with some particular needs actually found that lockdown suited them because they were at home and not needing to interact in a way that made them uncomfortable. This has meant that transitioning back into school has been more difficult for some, particularly with COVID bubbles and smaller class sizes and those sorts of changes. I'm pleased to see your LA has produced helpful guidance - it would be great if you could share it here so others can see it (if you're comfortable doing that). So yes, I do think it's better understood however the anxiety that may children face is often downplayed and misinterpreted. In terms of advice - I'd recommend that parents keep a written log of the issues that cause their child anxiety - effectively gather data on the issues that may trigger your child, and share that with the school and your GP. Your GP can then (hopefully) escalate that to relevant specialists or at the very least put you on a waiting list for support.

@SetSail

Hi how do I join the web chat?

You are in it @SetSail! If you refresh the page you will be able to see Alice's answers as she starts replying.

Can an LA refuse to pay at least some percentage of a private school's fees if that school is listed as an option on our EHCP preference form? We have also listed an SRP in a mainstream school. There are no other options for our LO, who has complex needs. We are expecting to go to tribunal as the SRP is vastly oversubscribed.

Thank you! Newbie here.

@drspouse this is a fundamental problem with the provision of all supports in the UK, including social care. Historically NHS has provided EHCP inputs however this is changing depending on the LA and also the school that the child attends. A number of years ago, schools had their therapy budgets delineated to them too so they could choose how to fill the EHCP requirements. So, some employ private therapists to cover. There is no consistency across areas and also a huge lack of OTs as well.