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Live online chat with Jan Parker, Tuesday May 14th 9-10.15pm

70 replies

Carriel · 08/05/2002 12:00

This coming Tuesday, May 14th at 9.00pm Mumsnet is hosting a live chat with Jan Parker. As well as being mumsnet's resident parenting expert Jan, together with her co-author Jan Stimpson, has also written the much acclaimed "Raising Happy Children". Praise for their latest book includes:
"Raising siblings isn?t easy, and being a sibling isn?t easy. For many of us it?s one of the most difficult roles we play. It must be wonderful to grow up with another person and be the best of friends. All parents who want to create an environment where their children can do this should read this book." ? Dr Dorothy Rowe, psychologist and writer

"At last, a book for parents with more than one child! Sibling Rivalry, Sibling Love is warm, thought-provoking and packed with helpful ideas. I thoroughly recommend it." - Belinda Phipps, chief executive of the National Childbirth Trust

You can post questions in advance for Jan below, or log on to this discussion to talk to her live on Tuesday night. The first 10 members to ask a question live on Tuesday will win a copy of Jan's latest book Sibling Rivalry, Sibling Love.

OP posts:
MalmoMum · 14/05/2002 21:46

Don't know if my question is within your scope but I'm still bf ds who will be about 23 months when the next baby arrives in August. It's not so much feeding as the close cuddle and he's not dependent upon it for going to bed etc.

If he finds me in bed, which he does in the morning, then we both enjoy the snuggle. If I pick him up in the morning we ususally head for breakfast though he starts knocking on the door if I am not around. Otherwise it's when he catches me naked, when he is sick or we are travelling.

If I were not pg then I would not be niggled by this but I do worry about storing up future problems. However, my gut instinct is not to remove something that is working just as it's sociably more the norm and poss only a potential problem.

Many thanks

Snugs · 14/05/2002 21:49

My 4 1/2 yrd old ds will not leave his younger brother (11 mths) alone. Unfortunately, he doesn't know his own strength and what he thinks is a gentle tickle under the chin is more like attempted strangulation! I hate to tell him off as I don't want him going to the extreme and ignore his brother, but reminding him to be gentle meets with blank looks. Trying to distract elder ds also doesnt work as he insists 'I'm playing with Alex to give you a rest' (Bless )

I am worried that if I make too much of a fuss, elder ds will resent his brother - especially with the conflicting "play with him", "leave him alone" messages he is getting.

Snugs · 14/05/2002 21:49

My 4 1/2 yrd old ds will not leave his younger brother (11 mths) alone. Unfortunately, he doesn't know his own strength and what he thinks is a gentle tickle under the chin is more like attempted strangulation! I hate to tell him off as I don't want him going to the extreme and ignore his brother, but reminding him to be gentle meets with blank looks. Trying to distract elder ds also doesnt work as he insists 'I'm playing with Alex to give you a rest' (Bless )

I am worried that if I make too much of a fuss, elder ds will resent his brother - especially with the conflicting "play with him", "leave him alone" messages he is getting.

Snugs · 14/05/2002 21:50

I only posted that once - honest!

JanParker · 14/05/2002 21:51

Hi Tinkerbell,

Different children understand different things at different times, so be guided by your son and his responses to your pregnancy, and do what you feel best. When to tell a child about having a new brother or sister depends on many factors ? their age and understanding of what others may discuss in their hearing, what else may be going on, whether they have already sensed that something important is happening. Your son is only very little, and little ones sometimes don?t even notice their mother?s growing size for many, many months.

It?s probably easiest on him to begin talking gently about babies in general. Point out other pregnant women, and explain that there?s a baby in their tummy. Mixing with mothers and newborns can help children of any age become a little more used to
little babies. Keep any changes to routines and your home, to room layouts and contents etc as gradual and low-key as you can make it. And enjoy all the cuddles and relaxed time together that you can.

JanParker · 14/05/2002 21:53

Hi Wildcat,

Please don?t stop breastfeeding simply because you are trying for another child. This is something very precious between you and your daughter and you?ll have plenty of notice before any new baby arrives, if you want to stop by then. So I?d certainly hold off the decision for now.

I wish I could tell you how to ?prevent? your daughter from being jealous, but life?s not like that. Jealousy comes with the territory of siblinghood ? which also brings many joys. But the evidence suggests it?s not breastfeeding as such that sparks jealousy, so much as the diversion of mother?s attention towards the baby. And children will do all sorts of diabolical things to grab that attention back! So it?s best to be prepared.

Many mothers told us that doing something pleasurable with the older child while feeding the baby really helps. Some read with the older child, others watch a favourite video together, snuggling up on the sofa, others had a ?bag of tricks? to hand, with a few favourite snacks and toys ? anything to show the older one you?re still noticing them and appreciating them even though you?re feeding the baby. Again, this is dealt with in more detail in the book, but I hope this helps. Anybody else have good suggestions?

Cl · 14/05/2002 22:09

I have to say that I started off doing all those snuggly reading things when the baby was small, but as soon as he hit 6 months he wanted to join in, eat the book etc and wouldn't feed. My suggestion - since you ask and horrendous I'm sure as it will sound to many people - is after bathtime together, I allow my older dd to go and watch Scooby Doo or a video for 20 minutes while I feed and put the baby to bed. Goes against all the 'you should always watch TV together, don't use it as a babysitter' stuff but it's a question of survival.. and we do then have a good 20 minutes of stories and snuggles when the baby's asleep.

Wendles · 14/05/2002 22:13

My 3.5 yr old daughter often takes toys etc. away from my 15 month son and will also slap him even if she knows I'm watching.

What is a good way to make her see that it's not right to do what she's doing?

JanParker · 14/05/2002 22:17

Sorry for slight delay in sending this. One of my three decided to wake up! All now sound asleep. Phew.

So Hi SianH, and all the other Mumsnet members wanting to help their older children cope with new arrivals.

Two important points only touched on so far, that may be worth considering in more detail.

The first is about allowing feelings. Our older children need to know it?s not only all right but perfectly understandable to sometimes feel angry, upset and jealous about the new baby. After all, what they held to be safe and stable in the world ? their own family ? has been transformed beyond recognition.

Telling children off for resenting their new brother or sister, or suggesting that they should feel otherwise will only fuel resentments. It?s far better to let our children know that negative feelings aren?t taboo and can be admitted openly: ?It must feel strange having a new baby around. I can understand that.? ?It?s hard when she cries isn?t it?? ?It?s hard having to share me with a baby, isn?t it??

That way, we can help reassure the older child that family life may have changed, but we still understand when they hurt, and still love them enough to notice.

Also, a quite beautiful piece of research by British developmental psychologist Judy Dunn and her colleagues shows how important and helpful it can be to encourage affectionate interest between the older child and the newborn.

If we point out to the older child how to elicit chuckles and smiles from the baby, we can encourage their first games together. Nothing fancy, but very important ? peeking games, mimicking games etc. Once the older child responds sensitively and in a friendly way to the baby, the baby will start to respond more positively to the child ? reaching out to them, showing pleasure as they enter the room. If we emphasise the baby?s friendly interest in the child, the child?s more likely to show friendly interest in the baby. It?s what Dunn calls a ?win-win? situation. Helps the older child see that this baby isn?t simply an uninvited invader, but someone who could be quite good fun to have around, someone with whom they could form a relationship.

The book goes into all this in more detail, but it?s worth remembering that sometimes children need to be shown that there are positives in this relationship! And when we do, it really does seem to help.

JanParker · 14/05/2002 22:20

Hi Cl,
Thanks for the 'survival' tip. There are very, very few 'shoulds' and 'should nots' in all this. We do the best we can, and sometimes it's just not possible to be everywhere at all times and be everything to all children. Here's to survival!

Carriel · 14/05/2002 22:23

That's all we have time for folks! Thanks for joining in the discussion and a big thank you to Jan from all at mumsnet for all her hard work tonight and over the years as our parenting expert. We won't be accepting any more questions tonight, but Jan has promised to try and reply to any that haven't already been answered in the near future, so don't forget to check back. And remember to get hold of a copy of the book Sibling Rivalry, Sibling Love for more in depth responses to all these queries.

Thanks again to all and goodnight.

Carrie, Justine and Rachel

OP posts:
JanParker · 14/05/2002 22:31

We've run out of time now, but I'll try to answer all those questions I haven't got to yet over the next day or so. And thank you. Interesting questions raising some really important issues.

Some strong themes emerging, too. Sibling relationships matter very much - to our children, to us as parents and to us as adults with brothers and sisters. The bond between brothers and sisters is intense and jam packed with emotion, good and bad, and can have a profound impact on our children's experiences of childhood and the people they grow to be.

Parents can't wave magic wands and make everything sweetness and light. What a boring life it would be if we could! But we can help our children fight less, flourish as individuals and have happier, more fulfilling relationships.

Thanks for tonight. I've really enjoyed it.

Eulalia · 15/05/2002 19:26

Malomum - I saw your post here and actually discussed this topic on another board where you asked me if I was tandem feeding. Yes I am. Let me know if you want to discuss this further... I'll see if I can find my post...

Eulalia · 15/05/2002 19:29

Here it is and sorry I mispelled your name.

Malmomum - yes I am tandem feeding. It has turned out OK fortunately. My son often only needs a few seconds and that seems to keep him happy. I don't really enjoy feeding him the way I used to any more - I do it more as a favour to him (he is 3 in July). I haven't had many 'fights' over my boobs although it can get irritating first thing in the morning when daughter is hungry and I'd rather just snuggle down with her and my son wants a look in. I do sometimes tell him to wait as I think he is old enough to understand that and besides my poor daughter needs her milk more than he does!

He was down to only one 'feed' a night before I had her and I am sure would have weaned himself fairly soon. However these past weeks he has wanted to feed more obviously just for reassurance and because he is seeing me breastfeeding more often.

I think it has probably helped with jealousy which has hardly been an issue as he sees that he is still 'allowed' to feed and he is not excluded.

If you don't think you want to tandem feed I'd try to stop now while you still have time. What age is your son? The older he is the longer it will take him to forget. Good luck with whatever you decide and if you want to ask anything just give us a shout.

MalmoMum · 16/05/2002 14:19

Thanks Eulalia. I'm a bit too tired to reply right now. I think I'm producing more colusum again now as ds seems to have a renewed vigour around the breast (all other things being fairly equal).

Glad it's a non-issue with you. We did get through one week a month or so ago without then ds got a 40 degree off and on fever for a week and remembered. I don't feel happy beating him off the breast though it would be handy when travelling etc, to take him in bad with us without having him attached to me. I took the jealously reply from JP as heartening: stopping bf is not going to sort out jealously overall.

JanParker · 16/05/2002 22:44

Hi Wendles,

If your daughter slaps her little brother even when she knows your watching, she?s probably doing it to get a response from you. In brief (the book covers these issues in detail, in particular the sections on Caring and Sharing, and Toy Wars) if it happens again, why not tell your daughter ? calmly and very firmly -- that you understand she is angry about something and she knows she is NOT to hit. Then pick up your son, and focus attention on him. Maybe even leave the room for a short while if it?s safe to do so. That way your daughter doesn?t receive attention for grotty behaviour.

This can be very effective in turning around aggressive behaviour between siblings, but can only work longterm if you also shower her with attention and descriptive praise when she is behaving considerately.

Encouraging them both to take turns with toys also seems to help. As will talking to her about feelings and ways to express them, and giving her the one-to-one attention most siblings crave.

Hi Snugs,
Little children sometimes need to be shown what gentle means. Why not stroke him under the chin to show how nice it feels when it?s done gently, or hold his hand and stroke his little brother gently together. If your little one likes it, he?ll show it. Then?s the chance to praise your older son and make him feel a million dollars for doing something as wonderful as making another person smile.

I think even the sweetest and happiest older children are often very aware when their loving tickles turn into strangle holds. They do resent their younger siblings and a little tweaking and pinching is one way to show it. Our job is to show them that we love them to bits, understand how they?re feeling, and want them to stick to family rules of behaviour. That way, the contradictory messages may become one, clear message: ?It?s great when you play together and you?re both having fun. If you don?t want to have fun, leave him alone.?

Hi Satty,
Awards tend to be short term, you?re right. Some parents of ADAH children contacted us after we published our first book ? Raising Happy Children ? to say how much they appreciated the advice on encouraging children to co-operate and on guiding behaviour. Sometimes we do have to be very clear and firm with our children, as well as understanding and loving.

There?s also much advice in Sibling Rivalry Sibling Love on supporting children with a brother or sister with special needs or very different abilities (NF, you may want to look at this too).

Two books won?t come cheap, even at Amazon. Why not order them from your library instead.

Hi Giggi,
You are absolutely right. Rivalry can be a great spur, as we explain in the book. I guess much depends on how inevitable rivalries are handled within the family, and whether any child feels that ?different to? equals ?lesser than? or, most hurtful of all, ?less loved than?. Children?s perception of themselves in relation to their brothers and sisters can limit their views of their own potential, sometimes for life.
Great news that you?re good friends. I do want to be clear, though, that our intention in the book is not to eradicate jealousy and rivalry. Couldn?t do it, even if we wanted to. But rather to help children cope, so hurts don?t go so deep or cause long term damage to their self-esteem or to their sibling relationships.

Hi ExpatKat,
Many parents told us that this strategy seemed to help but, as a general rule of thumb, if it doesn?t feel right for you, don?t do it. There are approaches that will help you support your eldest, encourage him to feel understood and see that having a brother or sister can be good fun. My instinct ? and very well respected research backs this up ? is that these are much more important to family relationships than any gift at the time of the birth.

Hi sobernow,
We all bring our own experiences of childhood to how we view our children (our feelings, about our past as well as our present experiences as parents, are discussed in depth in the chapter Exploring Emotions).

If you continue to be concerned about your partner?s focus on your older child, why not take the older child out on your own sometimes, leaving your partner with your little one so they can have relaxed one-to-one time together and enjoy each other?s company? Or ask him to read the chapter in the book on favouritism!

Parental favouritism is one of the known spurs to extreme sibling hostility, as are parental ?allegiances? ? where each parent has obvious and long term affinity with a different child in the family. For all your sakes, it?s an issue worth thinking about and addressing.

Hi Tigermoth,
Adolescence can be tough for siblings, especially the one ?left behind? in the developmental journey. But as the last chapter of the book explains, there?s much parents can do to help. Much of the groundwork can be done earlier ? encouraging them to find solutions to their arguments, consider other people?s feelings, respect their own and express their opinions assertively rather than aggressively etc etc. Through their teens it helps to explain and reassure about the processes of puberty and adolescence, and to maintain connections by doing things together as a family so they have shared memories and will find it easier to reconnect in adulthood. Huge topic, but there?s much in that last chapter that may help.

Hi Jolie,
You?re right. She is bound to ask ? or at least want to. It will be very hard for you to talk about the loss of your baby. If you find it too hard, or if you feel your daughter is trying to protect your feelings by not asking the questions she needs, perhaps you could ask your partner or another relative or trusted friend to talk to her. She needs to know that it is very unlikely that you?ll experience such a loss again, and that the love between you all helped you cope last time. Your daughter also needs someone who?ll listen to how she feels, if and when she wants to speak about it. When she has a new brother or sister, she needs to be reassured that it?s OK to not always feel loving towards siblings, even when they are so precious and so wanted.

The chapters on communication and emotions contain insights from many sources which may help.

Hi Billetjo,

Cyclones need to rush about and expend some of their huge amounts of energy before they can settle in a confined space ? like a home ? without causing major disruption. Have you tried going to the park, the swimming pool, anywhere he can let off lots of steam once a day? If that?s hard, have you tried a mini trampoline (available from Early Learning Centre etc)? Kids can bounce on them for hours, even inside, which may lessen the temptation to bounce off older siblings.

Could he have a friend to play when his brother has a friend home? More work for you in many ways, but maybe less of a headache all round if he doesn?t disrupt their games.

Perhaps he would benefit from more calm one-to-one time with you, if that?s possible, so he doesn?t feel so driven to disrupt for attention. Clearly explained and firmly applied rules about butting in and destroying games might also be needed. He?s only three so don?t expect him to turn around his behaviour overnight. He?ll need the rules explained and repeated ? and reinforced with heaps of praise when he gets the hang of them -- but in time he should get the message.

Hi to Glory, NF and all other mumsnet members worried about their children?s fights.

The roots of children?s fights can lie in many things, so it would be glib and unhelpful to come up with a one-size fits all solution to every eventuality. However, children do seem to benefit when parents encourage them to find their own solutions to arguments. In fact well respected, new research from a Canadian team of developmental psychologists suggests that when children are encouraged to think through their problems and agree solutions that each is happy with, the number and intensity of sibling rows is reduced. These skills of negotiation, assertion and compromise will also benefit them in relationships outside the home.
These and other possible ways forward are detailed in the book. So please don?t despair. There is much that may help.

Hi ScrummyMummy,

Thanks for you kind words about Raising Happy Children. It?s always great to hear from people who enjoy our books and find they help

To answer your questions: 1) I don?t think streaming will matter overmuch right now, as long as your boys aren?t aware that it?s happening. Neither do I think any nursery staff worth their salt would think you were making a big issue of things if you raise your concerns.

Clear differences in ability, compounded by streams and groupings, can be hard for any sibling to negotiate and for twins, who are compared so much more often and by so many, it can be even tougher. That?s one reason why I think it?s crucial we impress on our children that there are many ways to shine in life, that people excel at different things and learn at different rates, and that each child is loved and appreciated just for being themselves. Sometimes this is easier to say than to show, but the sections on twins, identity and comparisons between siblings contain many ideas that may help.

  1. I think Gina Ford has heaps of experience in tackling many important issues and a great many parents have appreciated her advice.

  2. Not surprised you?re baffled! Some counselling courses are ?distinctly bizarre? as you say, and some are excellent. Before you sign up to anything, it might be worth having a look at the website for the UK Council for Psychotherapy, and its outline of the different theoretical approaches and the various member organisations ? great for getting a very basic feel for the central ideas of each way of working (www.ukcp.org.uk). The British Association for Counselling and Psychotherapy ? tel 01788 578328 ? publishes a list of accredited training courses and other information. It really is worth talking to as many people as possible, to explore different options and career paths. Other good sources of information include The Trainee Handbook: A guide for counselling and psychotherapy trainees. Eds Robert Bor and Mary Watts (Sage); The Training in Counselling and Psychotherapy Directory (BACP); and a huge but fascinating tome ? An Introduction to Counselling, by John McLeod (OUP). Good luck!

Hi Stukey,
With children as close in age and as different in interests and aptitude, I think all we?ve discussed regarding twins applies. They?ll need their own time with you, and recognition as individuals in their own right rather than how they measure up in relation to their sibling. The world is full of people who?ll compare your sons. Your sons will doubtless measure their achievements against those of their brothers, as siblings tend to do. It?s our job as parents not to join in and, as far as we?re able, to help each child feel they shine in our eyes.

lyners · 24/09/2002 12:59

I always seem to be drawn in to a fight between my feisty little boy, age 3, and our au pair who seems to reply pretty much on me to think up new distractions etc., when T does not want to get dressed in the mornings for nursery and runs off. The ensuing fights most mornings are distressing and I find myself being put in a position of being on her side since the main objective is to get him dressed. Whilst I don't think the au pair is being particularly pro-active - even though we have discussed many distractions she could use, I do need the help and since au pairs aren't trained she is not an unusual example. Any advice on what tact to try? Getting ready was always a bit hard but mostly fun.

lyners · 24/09/2002 13:00

I always seem to be drawn in to a fight between my feisty little boy, age 3, and our au pair who seems to rely pretty much on me to think up new distractions etc., when T does not want to get dressed in the mornings for nursery and runs off. The ensuing fights most mornings are distressing and I find myself being put in a position of being on her side since the main objective is to get him dressed. Whilst I don't think the au pair is being particularly pro-active - even though we have discussed many distractions she could use, I do need the help and since au pairs aren't trained she is not an unusual example. Any advice on what tact to try? Getting ready was always a bit hard but mostly fun.

Rhubarb · 24/09/2002 14:09

Sorry, who's Jan Parker?

Carriel · 24/09/2002 15:37

Jan is mumsnet's resident parenting expert, currently on a six month sabbatical. This thread is for archive purposes only and I've written to lyners to suggest she posts her query under parenting.

Cheers

Carrie

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