Join us for a live webchat with Professor Dorothy Bishop, Tuesday 16 December 1-2pm

[KateHMumsnet]

We've had a few requests for a webchat with Professor Dorothy Bishop on academic research into language disorders, dyslexia and literacy issues - so we're delighted to announce that she will be joining us for a webchat on Tuesday 16 December at 1pm.

Dorothy is a Wellcome Trust Principal Research Fellow and Professor of Developmental Neuropsychology at the University of Oxford, where she heads a programme of research into children’s communication impairments. She is also a supernumerary fellow of St John’s College Oxford, as well as a Fellow of the British Academy, the Academy of Medical Sciences and the Royal Society. As well as publishing in conventional academic outlets, she writes a popular blog and tweets as @deevybee.

Please join us in welcoming Professor Bishop on Tuesday 16 December from 1-2pm, or post your questions in advance on this thread.

actually - look at 'colourful semantics' too. That has each 'part' of a sentence a different colour, who, where, what, what doing and then adjectives etc are all different colours to help children make sure they've got all the bits they need.

Sorry for hijack - I'm really keen to hear answers to all these questions but just thought I'd share ainw things I've seen tried. I've got no data though so not sure how effective!

Just had DS' severe expressive language disorder confirmed today.

This explains to me why I have for so long been confused at people's insistence that he has a semantic-pragmatic disorder due to his ASD. I really don't think this is much of a problem for him.

After receiving the above news, my question of 'how to help' was met with a blank look and the suggestion that we 'tackle it from many angles'.

Excellent.

Anyone got any research evidence should outcomes for 'tackle it from many angles' therapy?

Hairy Thank you. That sentence counter might work though I think it will work best with DS with two 'tally counters' as he likes them. It will motivate him to create longer sentences too I think.

I'll have to find a good voice recorder thing and give it a go anyway as it sounds promising. Thanks again.

We tried colourful semantics once but the shapes seemed a bit distracting and we spent more time stopping ds from flicking them or stacking them than actually creating any work. He isn't a visual learner especially. However, I might get him to underline words in different colours that he reads first and then has to create his own similar sentence with same colours but different words.

Colourful semantics isn't shape based, and shape coding wouldn't usually be used with actual physical 3d shapes. I've never seen anything like that zzzz, it's sort of intriguing. What you suggest, Hairy, is the most common everyday practice for colourful semantics or colour coding of sentence work in general and in secondary level work, it's an unobtrusive means of getting kids to check and edit work. One of the benefits of it as an approach is that it fits in nicely with normal, everyday school work - ideally, once it has been taught, you use it as a way of embedding language work into the everyday curriculum, which is a recognised best practice in language disorder intervention.

In many ways, the use of colour or shape here isn't really to appeal to a visual learning style as such, but to demonstrate the complex rules of language without needing to do so verbally. I would say this is particularly true of shape coding when you reach advanced levels of sentence construction. The use of visuals or shapes is intended to make the underlying rules of how sentences work explicit - to be able to show and have the child DO what they need to, repeatedly practising a particular pattern, say subject verb object.

Zzzzz, there has recently been a major debate about terminology in the profession. Many people - clients, parents, therapists, academics - are unhappy with the confusion and how this impacts upon the services people receive, as well as how it hampers research. In real clinical practice, in the absence of large scale intervention studies, evidence is used from a range of sources to try and answer a clinical question - Pearson publish these case examples of going through this process. Of course there is evidence in the many peer-reviewed journals related to the field, but not at an acceptable scale or frequency compared to other professions, in all honesty.

ds2 is an avid reader but very reluctant writer. What puzzles me is that he spells lots of little words wrong e.g. "dose" instead of "does" but has a much better hit rate at longer words. Why are the small word more difficult for him and how can we help?

I experienced significant emotional trauma in my childhood and it impacted on my schooling which was severely limited. I am now 61 and have never been able to open or read a book because it triggers traumatic memories. This problem was not resolved during my time in an intensive psychotherapeutic community However, I can read and have educated myself using the internet, radio and television.

Throughout my childhood I was considered to be of low intelligence and the trauma left me literally without a voice. I feel very strongly that children in similar situations today remain stigmatised and socially excluded not only by professionals but society in general and it seems that the medical profession remain ignorant of the impact of childhood emotional trauma on young people. The attitude remains that you should pull yourself together and face your demons.

Educationally we have a system that only recognises academic success. I would like to know why there so much ignorance and prejudice still surrounds illiteracy in all it's forms.

I have participated in several radio interviews including Carers World Radio. The interviewer concluded by saying that my experiences show that you should never right off any child. Sadly as I have indicated that is not the case.

Hi deevybee My dd is in Y11 and doing very well but may well have mild dyslexia as this was mentioned as possibility at primary, especially as reading - and writing - didn't quite take off according to NT trajectory in her earlier years. Has caught up very well now though. Still some probs mainly with organisation, time management, and idiosyncratic spelling (including in exams - has just done mocks and not attempting all questions due to lack of time has meant not quite reaching ambitiously set targets just yet - hopefully practice papers and consideration of exam techniques/planning may bring grades up a little by next spring/summer)

She has also been taking part in a research project at a leading Uni (though not yours!) looking at auditory processing in children with dyslexia. So, I suspect this indicates she has some dyslexic tendencies, though technically she could, like her friend, be in the control group of NTers.

So, my question, would you recommend we sought an assessment and possible diagnosis (almost definitely privately) for dd, and what would be the advantages for her if we were to do so?

I've never seen it done with shapes before, we just use different coloured pens either on whiteboards or on paper. I must admit to not knowing much aboutbit but followingbthe planning of the person who does! Will try to link to the recorders we use but have two I'll children, one with meltdowns on top!

Lots of darning and starching?

Diagnostic substitution and increasing amounts of ASD. Your theories on this as really interesting. I've read your blog post but would love more information.
In times past there was classic autism - and then speech and language damages with traits
Now it is all in one category

The hard bit is knowing where your child will end up and the new classifications make it harder. Do you have any pointers on how to make a guess?

Thank you for coming on. I am interested in your work linking x and y chromosomes with autism as my grandson is XYY and was diagnosed ASD at nearly 3 (he's 6 now). He is language delayed but making good progress with slt and is learning to sight read (he liked phonics but found it confusing). However he struggles with writing with a pen and drawing or painting. He can spell triangle but can't draw one. Is there a link between his motor problems and language acquisition skills?

What would be the optimal age for dyslexia testing and would an Ed Psych be the best person to test? Thanks

@zzzzz

WOOOOOOOHOOOOOO! brilliant MNHQ. So much to ask. Will need to think hard so as to not waste time.

Fantastic news!

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Fantastic to have you here. My son is aged 6 and has a diagnosis of verbal dyspraxia and a phonological disorder from a specialised clinic where we live in Belgium.

I have many questions, but will try and limit them to two.

He is bi-lingual flemish/english . He has thrice weekly therapy from a specialised SLT but progress is very slow.

Is there evidence to suggest that bi/multi lingualism prohibits the treatment of speech disorders?

Also my father has a severe stammer. Is there a link between a stammer and dyspraxia?

Just musing here, but I had a thought. DS has ASD (and now a recognised expressive language disorder). His toddler years were spent in silence. Ignoring me. Ignoring everyone.

When he began to develop language he was straight into a mainstream environment and largely withdrawn due to the sensory overload. He certainly didn't access language there.

Eventually I fought for a place at a special school and he made good progress in basic tolerance of gentle verbally limited social interaction.

I wonder if it actually a surprise he has expressive language difficulties.

Now he is Home Educated, and verbal, and socially motivated, should I communicate with him in a way similar to how I interact with my 2.5yr old. Lots and lots of talking, labelling, describing, jokes, and just generally providing a very language-rich environment rather than treating him like the 8yr old he is and restrict conversations to minecraft unless we are specifically on a lesson topic. He did miss out on everything my 2.5yr old is getting now.

zzzzz

'I'm just not cool am I?'

Is that a question for Dorothy? Or can any of us answer?

Thanks for all your questions. Sorry if I can’t answer you all. Be assured I will read them all. Often questions don’t have a ready answer, but just by posing them you may stimulate me and other researchers to think about the issue and try and find out more. Please note: I can’t give a clinical opinion on individual children, but I will do my best to let you know where there is relevant research regarding your queries.

@totoro7ssidekick

Thanks for doing this chat!

Please could you comment on this?

My 4-year-old is in reception, and went to the same school's nursery last year, where they started them on phonics. He had speach therapy last year for pronouciation, and he still has issues with this. He says 't' for 's', for example; 'h' for 'th.'

So his nursery teacher last term said she didn't think he was ready to start reading, because he can't distinguish sounds. But he loves books and stories, and is happy to pick out letters, play I spy, etc.

So the thing is, he can distinguish sounds, and he can read letters - but he just can't say them all. So if you showed him 't' and 's' mixed in with a bunch of letters and you asked him to pick them each out, he could. But if you showed him 's' and asked him to say it, he'd say 't.' Hope those examples make sense!

So my feeling is that phonics as taught in his school does not allow for children with speech sound difficulties, who can recognise and distinguish letters (and now a few short words), but who can't pronounce them.

What are your thoughts on this? Do you need he needs to be able to pronounce in order to read, and we should just leave the school to get on with it? Or can you recommend any alternative ways to learn to read?

We did some research on this years ago, but times were very different then. In the 1980s, when this research was done, children were not introduced to phonics before the age of 5 years. We found that children with expressive phonological problems (i.e. difficulty in producing speech sounds distinctively) often had problems learning to read, but two things were important: first, whether they could understand tasks that involve breaking words into sounds (phonological awareness tasks), and second how old they were.
4 yr olds with relatively mild problems in speech sound production often did well: their speech problems usually resolved by the time they were introduced to reading at 5 years. Children who were still having difficulty with speech production at 5 often had persistent difficulties and were baffled by phonics.
The relevant article is here:
I suspect the nursery teacher is concerned that if she starts trying to teach phonics-based reading to a child who is not ready for it, this could have the negative effect of turning him off completely. This is a real concern for many children now that they are being taught to read so much younger than before. Personally, I think there’s no harm in delaying teaching children to read until they are 5 or even older, and meanwhile keeping up their interest in books by reading to them and encouraging an interest in sounds with rhyming games etc.