Live webchat with Amnesty International Tuesday 4th Feb, 11-12pm

[KatieMumsnet]

Following the leaking of an Amnesty International policy document 'Decriminalisation of Sex Work: Policy Background', which argues that men who buy sex are ‘exercising their autonomy’ and should be allowed to do so ‘free from government interference’ there has been considerable discussion on the site and requests for a webchat.

Today, Kate Allen, Director of Amnesty International UK will be here between 11-12pm to answer your questions.

Please do join us live on Tuesday or ask your question on this thread in advance. Just a quick reminder that it’s one question per person; take a look at our webchat guidelines, here.

Best

MNHQ

[FloraFox]

bella by not listening to what people are saying and arguing points no-one is making, you are appearing to have little of value to contribute. Don't be surprised if people start ignoring you. Of course, you can always complain about being silenced.

Have you ever encountered someone being pimped, abused, subject to violence? Did you do something about it? Call a tip off line?

Why is it hysterical to assume that if benefits would be withheld if a woman refuses to be a prostitute if it's just a job? One of the punters who posted on here thinks they should.

[happyon]

Spot on as ever beach.

[Beachcomber]

Thank you happyon.

On the subject of benefits - when Amnesty International talks of an 'imperfect context' I imagine that part of what they are referring to, is poor girls and women, in countries which do not have welfare systems, having to suck up being paid for sex as a replacement for benefits.

Which is pretty ruthless and misogynistic for a so called human rights organisation.

[horsetowater]

Up to 75% of women involved in prostitution began when they were under 18 years of age and most teenage prostitutes are involved in street prostitution, which is estimated to be ten times more dangerous than working from houses or flats.
[Benson, C. and Matthews, R. (1995), Street prostitution: Ten facts in search of a policy. International Journal of Sociology of the Law, 23, 395-415.]

No link between child abuse and prostitution? 18 isn't very far over the age of consent.

[KatieMumsnet]

Hiya

Just wanted to add a bit of clarity on Kate Allen answering two questions from rhinoceer. That is actually my mistake. In the midst of the webchat, (when it does all get a bit head spinny) I suggested she answered the second of rhinoceer's questions, without realising she'd already answered one already. Hope that helps.

[VegetariansTasteLikeChicken]

Thanks for clearing that up katieMNHQ

[VegetariansTasteLikeChicken]

Why is it hysterical to assume that if benefits would be withheld if a woman refuses to be a prostitute if it's just a job? One of the punters who posted on here thinks they should.

Because, again, "bella" is has fuck all awareness of the UK benefits system and is referring to the US, where there is basically no real welfare state.

She has yet to understand that she is arguing with parents on a parenting board in a country she has probably never been to. And that we are not all multi millionaires with money made off the backs of prostitutes..and not just people who think it's shit that women get trafficked.

[scallopsrgreat]

Just caught up on this. Disappointing but not unsurprising, unfortunately.

Kate seems to have totally bypassed any questions about the gendered nature of prostitution and pimps (and AI effectively erradicating that dynamic). In fact she doesn't seem to even recognise the oppression of women by men and how that is played out through prostitution. It is incredibly worrying that a human rights organisation seems to have no concept of a global-wide oppression and how it manifests itself.

[JugglingFromHereToThere]

Yes, one aspect of that scallops is that I think both the web-chat and the draft policy were full of PC language gone mad. PC language should only be used when it's appropriate and meaningful to do so

[DuskAndShiver]

I am so appalled by all this, is this sort of thing"common sense" now?

[BellaRobinson]

Yes I have reported a trafficking case, and it seems they didn't give a shit and nobody went to rescue poor Kathy, even though Polaris Project was getting over 3 million in US funding. They admitted to me they have NO SERVICES FOR VICTIMS. Yet their CEO of there 501 C 3 makes over 150,000 a year.

legalizetoprotect.blogspot.com/2012/08/common-nightwalkers-disabled-escorts.html

I get tons of calls regulatory from sex workers all over the US, they are scared, they have been beaten, or robbed and there is no where to send them for help. Th best advice we can give them is "to not call the police" as most likely the police will take them to jail and let their abuser go, and not take their complaints seriously. These things also happen to VICTIMS, because nobody is going to report anything because of the criminalization of adult prostitution.

Through the efforts of the sex workers right movement and esplerp.org we got the sex workers of CA access to victims compensation.

www.salon.com/2013/12/13/in_major_legal_victory_sex_workers_in_california_gain_access_to_victim_compensation_rights/

I just don't get YOUR argument that ' you people claim they want to rescue us, save us" and yet all the polices are set up to harm sex workers, punish them, discriminate against them and isolate them from their communities and put them at a higher risk of violence.

Criminalization of adult sex workers has not stopped any kids from being exploited, it is a FAILED POLICY and even the UN and the World Health Organization has recommended that we decriminalize what sex work between consenting adults.

I do not appreciate being talked to "as if I were a child", I think having been a sex worker for over 30 years that I am a EXPERT on the topic, I have interviewed thousands of sex workers, so I understand what the issues are, and how the anti trafficking narrative is KILLING US.

Not 1 concern came over the 300 cops that rape kids, or the priests, coaches and other fine members of the community that rape our children. No concerns for the tens of thousands of homeless youths, as it seem there are plenty of people that need saving, but SEX WORKERS aren't them. WE are not your rescue project!

[rhinoceer]

"Up to 75% of women involved in prostitution began when they were under 18 years of age"

This is used on countless websites but what they don't tell you is it does not apply to the indoor scene. It was a 2002 report by Melrose done on a sample of 47 under-18s who were all streetwalkers (street prostitution has been illegal in the UK since 2007). No adults were involved in the sample and no indoor workers were involved.

"Rachel Moran gives evidence from about 18 minutes in. I applaud her.
www.bbc.co.uk/democracylive/northern-ireland-25973268"

I haven't watched it all yet but I haven't seen Rachel look up once from that script she's reading from in a very flat monotone voice.

[FloraFox]

FFS Bella how many times do we have to tell you we want women in prostitution to be decriminalised?

The women who are calling you to tell you they have been beaten or robbed - who is beating and robbing them?

[FloraFox]

rhino Rachel Moran is giving evidence to a parliamentary committee. She's not there to entertain you. Hard to grasp?

[AnyFucker]

Perhaps if Rachel Moran were to sex up her delivery a bit more to appeal to men like Rhino ? Come on Rach, a flash of tit and perhaps a come hither stare down camera is going to get you loads more respect.

[SabrinaMulhollandJjones]

I watched the Rachel Moran part of the programme, and her statement and responses to questioning are vital to this debate.

She is someone who after 7 years in all types of prostitution says she never met a happy hooker - although many were prepared to make out that they were happy to the outside world. It's called self-preservation.

The manner in which spoke is neither here nor there - she is talking about her own lived experience that is traumatic for her, rhino - did you want her read it in the style of 'after-dinner speaker'?

[Beachcomber]

She is speaking to a room full of men about being pimped and abused by men.

She actually says at one point that it is a wonder that 'I can sit here and speak of these things'.

Thankfully they are men who are able to see women as human and thank Rachel Moran for her powerful and brave testimony - perhaps because they haven't had their own humanity and empathy eroded by years of punting they could see that her delivery is that of a survivor talking about immense stress, distress and trauma, and her testimony is all the powerful for it.

At the end of the evidence given by the Congress of Trade Unions, their male representative makes it clear what sort of person one would have to be to not be deeply touched by Rachel Moran's evidence or to be left with any doubt that action needs to be taken to protect girls and women from punters.

[TheDoctrineOfSnatch]

I dunno, Beach, maybe rhino hangs around courtrooms and comments on how victims of assault don't seem very jolly on the witness stand.

[Beachcomber]

Perhaps - maybe he calls their statements of evidence 'that script' too.

[SauceForTheGander]

All I need to know about Rhino is revealed by his summary of Rachel Moran's testimony.

I hope AI PR team are still lurking.

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

Rachel Moran is amazing. I just wanted to say that. I have nothing else to add to this and am impressed by those who're able to keep arguing.

[enlightenmequick]

I've just watched it and I have to say she was brilliant.

Her opening statement was strong and moving and I love the way she can turn things around to make counter arguments seem ridiculous.

I was planning to buy her book anyway, but I'm more convinced to do so now.

link for Rachel Moran

(I know you but the web page on, but it took me a while to find it Beach, as I was looking for a blue link, so I thought I'd just put it to make it easier. )

[Beachcomber]

Good idea enlightenmequick to link like that.

I've watched the whole thing now - there is also a part one which is linked to on the page given by enlightenmequick.

It's all very interesting. Rachel Moran was definitely the most compelling witness. I thought Dr Ellison was given far too much time to repeat the same thing over and over again (prostitution will never go away). Still the Committee didn't seen overly impressed by him.

[rhinoceer]

She is someone who after 7 years in all types of prostitution says she never met a happy hooker

On the contrary Laura Lee on her testimony says she has spent 20+ years in brothels and escorting and says she has never once met or heard of any victims of trafficking.