Live webchat with Amnesty International Tuesday 4th Feb, 11-12pm

[KatieMumsnet]

Following the leaking of an Amnesty International policy document 'Decriminalisation of Sex Work: Policy Background', which argues that men who buy sex are ‘exercising their autonomy’ and should be allowed to do so ‘free from government interference’ there has been considerable discussion on the site and requests for a webchat.

Today, Kate Allen, Director of Amnesty International UK will be here between 11-12pm to answer your questions.

Please do join us live on Tuesday or ask your question on this thread in advance. Just a quick reminder that it’s one question per person; take a look at our webchat guidelines, here.

Best

MNHQ

[sonjdol]

No one shoudl be forced to work in prostitution. The decriminalization of sex work does not imply any of that. Why do you keep derailing away just to avoid talking about why criminalizing sex work is the actual cause of violence and trafficking?

[rhinoceer]

In short the "Nordic model" aka "Swedish model" makes purchase of sexual services illegal but not the selling of sexual services. It is used in Sweden, Norway and Iceland.

It may sound good in theory but there is much debate on the topic.

cybersolidaires.typepad.com/files/jaylevy-impacts-of-swedish-criminalisation-on-sexworkers.pdf

Some critics include difficulty to enforce; since the law was implemented in Sweden condoms are no longer given out to prostitutes or clients; some prostitutes have been evicted and made homeless (even though selling sex per se is not a crime, it is a crime to for a flat/home to be used to sell sex).

Sweden have noted street prostitution has fallen significantly since the law was implemented in 1999, however this may also be because this was around the time internet for everyday households took off and therefore meant some prostitution changed from the street to online bookings.

[sonjdol]

As far as I know, the nordic model does not exist and people in Sweden do not receive unconditional help.

[SabrinaMulhollandJjones]

The nordic model doesn't criminalise sex work, it criminalises the demand for commercialised sex.

You cannot separate the demand for commercialised sex from the supply being met by organised criminals and sex trafficking.

But I suggest the discussions should be carried out on the 2 threads already running on this - so as not to derail and confuse the questions for Kate.

[JugglingFromHereToThere]

Sorry, that should have been sonjdol

Perhaps by "average" age of 13 (for entering prostitution) they may have taken a "median" figure - that would be the most common age for first experience of this (and the most sensible sort of "average" to use)

[TunipTheUnconquerable]

Criminalising sex work isn't the cause of violence and trafficking - it is total rubbish to say it is. Look at countries where it is legal and you will see more trafficking, not less.

[Beachcomber]

Another important aspect of the Nordic model is police training - so that the actual people who do the on the street work are on the same page as the legislators. Plus public information programmes on the objectives, strategy, reasoning and values of the Nordic model

[sonjdol]

by the way, in Sweden even a 15 year old cannot be reaped.... tackel rape laws, before you punish adults who are engaged in consensual sex

www.thelocal.se/20140110/rape-suspect-freed-claims-womans-no-was-part-of-sex-game

[KateAllenAmnestyInternational]

@Helpyourself

I can't get my head round this at all.
Kate, please could you start this web chat by stating what Amnesty's policy on prostitution is now and a timeframe for and conditions of, changing that policy.

Hi Helpyourself,

We don’t have a policy about prostitution or sex workers at the moment, and we’re debating as a movement of over 3.5 million people around the world whether we should change that. Our concern is how we best protect some of the most vulnerable people, whose human rights we need to stand up for. So we’re consulting our members and we’ll be talking to interested organisations. It’s great to have your views today. Here in the UK, we’ll be doing this up until our AGM in April and our members there will have the results of all of those discussions. They will make a decision on what Amnesty’s view here in the UK is. I’m sorry this is a bit of a long answer, but the global decision-making will include every section of Amnesty around the world, going through a similar process, and then we’ll bring that all together when the chairs of all of our sections meet in June. The final decision will then be made in the autumn.

[enlightenmequick]

The policy states that this is an 'imperfect context', implying that you recognise it's not right. I'm assuming that you are implying it's not right for the women who have to prostitute themselves.

This would have made perfect sense, if you would have then gone on to support a women's right not to be bought for sex, but for some inexplicable reason, you've gone for the angle of the privileged man in this situation having the right to do buy sex in this 'imperfect context'.

And I know that you know he is the privileged in this situation, otherwise why else throw in the 'disabled' element to self justify.

I want to know, if you have given up fighting the 'bad guys since 1961'?

[Grennie]

Hi kate, thanks for agreeing to this. My 1 question I really want to know, is which sex worker organisations did you work with to write the leaked policy?

[FrothyDragon]

sonjdol, because it's a valid and constant concern, perhaps? May I suggest reading the blog of an exited woman. Few, if any, speak fondly of their time in prostitution.

[KateAllenAmnestyInternational]

@SabrinaMulhollandJjones

Kate, I would like to ask what Amnesty are doing to protect the human rights of women and children trafficked for prostitution?

I don't agree with Amnesty's gender-neutral language in their policy, or their assertion that men have a 'human right' to buy women for sex.

Hi Sabrina

Across the world AI are campaigning to stop trafficking of women and children. We've done that here in the UK. We've worked to ensure that the UK have signed up to the European convention against trafficking. We've worked with police to look at how victims of trafficking are supported and we've done this work in many parts of the world. I've met with AI staff in Nepal who have done brilliant work on the trafficking of women and children in that country.

[KateAllenAmnestyInternational]

@mogara

Does Amnesty believe that a woman who is trafficked and raped repeated daily, but feels unable to seek assistance from police or others, suffers a human rights abuse, and who precisely is abusing her, only her trafficker, or the punters who rape her?

Hi mogara,

Amnesty believes that any human trafficking, including into forced prostitution or any other non-consensual sex, should be criminalised as a matter of international law. Traffickers should be prosecuted, and those who have been trafficked should be protected. We have a long and proud record of work against trafficking. Here in the UK we led the campaign to have the UK government to sign up to the European Convention Against Trafficking, a campaign win of which I’m immensely proud. Our consultation document on sex work makes it very clear that we are against trafficking and our work on this will continue.

[sonjdol]

In Sweden foreign sex workers are deported WITHOUT receiving any of the help you are talking about
rt.com/news/sweden-eu-sex-europe-719/

And there is a lot of research who has widely shown how the Swedish model is a failure

sexworkresearch.wordpress.com/tag/sweden/

[VegetariansTasteLikeChicken]

when people could legally look put for each other, call the police if someone else was abused.

Any why wouldn't that be able to happen if the women are working legally and the man abusing them was considered to be doing something illegal merely by being there? Seems a fucking easy case to me.

Do you really need to be spouting your agenda on mumnset?

[FloraFox]

Kate

You description of the consultation does not ring true. It sounds very open as if you were beginning the consultation but the policy statement has been put forward as a proposal, not a wide consultation. All the further reading and external references are to pro-decriminalisation organisations and materials. Why has the proposal been put forward as it was if this is just a consultation?

[rhinoceer]

Sweden's chancellor of justice Anna Scarhead has said the intention of the law isn't harm reduction. She just wants a "ban".

Scarhead: "We don't work with harm reduction in Sweden...because that's not the way Sweden looks at this. We look upon it that this is a BAN on prostitution. There should be no prostitution and what we work with is to try and MAKE people who do this...not do it anymore."


IMO I disagree. I think harm reduction should be the priority. The focus should be on helping those who need instead of using resources trying to chase down consenting adults.

[KateAllenAmnestyInternational]

@Grennie

Hi kate, thanks for agreeing to this. My 1 question I really want to know, is which sex worker organisations did you work with to write the leaked policy?

Hi Grennie

The draft policy (not final) was written by at our global research HQ. We consulted a range of organisations, this includes groups across Africa, Latin America and Asia. Those that we've consulted, we're now asking whether we can have their consent to name them. For many this is a very sensitive issue with peoples' security and safety risk. We are now consulting with a wide range of people of what our policy should be. At the heart of all of this is how best AI can defend the rights of those engaged in sex work.

[basgetti]

So in your response to mogara's question, are you saying that clients who rape trafficked women shouldn't be prosecuted? By the fact that you failed to answer that part I guess so.

[rhinoceer]

Hello and welcome Kate :)

[KateAllenAmnestyInternational]

@TravelinColour

I don't understand this at all.

My question is: Do AI really believe that sex is a human right? And how do they square that with the knowledge that there are millions of celibate people in the world, by choice.

Hi TravelinColour,

We don’t believe sex is a human right, but it is a human need. What we’re doing is consulting widely about our position on sex work. I’m just back from Moscow, where I met with many in the LGBT community, who are fearful about the position that their government is taking on consensual sex for the LGBT community. It leads us sometimes at Amnesty to be cautious about whether the state should be involved in consensual sex, but this is the key issue in sex work that we are now consulting on. Our members globally have very different views: it’s going to be a very lively consultation and we’re going to learn a huge amount from it.

[Grennie]

What happened in sweden was not perfect. There are things that can be improved. But it is the only country whose policies have significantly reduced trafficking, violence and the involvement of children. If you don't tackle demand, the criminal gangs keep on trafficking new women and children.

[KateAllenAmnestyInternational]

@BelleOfTheBorstal

Can Amnesty International, as an organisation, really fail to see that by saying sex is a right that should be able to be purchased, they are one step away from saying that consent does not need to be obtained in ALL sexual situations?

I was also of the understanding that Amnesty International was against slavery. Is not the purchasing of another human's body, albeit it on a temporary basis, a form of slavery?

Hi BelleOfTheBorstal,

Amnesty isn’t saying that sex is a right that should be able to be purchased. We’re talking about the human rights of those who work as sex workers, and consent is the key word. All sexual activity, regardless of whether money changes hands, should be consensual. Our consultation doesn’t change that basic point. If there isn’t consent, then it’s rape.

[FloraFox]

Kate

Can you confirm that you have consulted with survivors' groups? Many survivor groups have questioned whether AI have done this and no survivor groups have said they were consulted.