Live webchat with Amnesty International Tuesday 4th Feb, 11-12pm

[KatieMumsnet]

Following the leaking of an Amnesty International policy document 'Decriminalisation of Sex Work: Policy Background', which argues that men who buy sex are ‘exercising their autonomy’ and should be allowed to do so ‘free from government interference’ there has been considerable discussion on the site and requests for a webchat.

Today, Kate Allen, Director of Amnesty International UK will be here between 11-12pm to answer your questions.

Please do join us live on Tuesday or ask your question on this thread in advance. Just a quick reminder that it’s one question per person; take a look at our webchat guidelines, here.

Best

MNHQ

[VegetariansTasteLikeChicken]

Go MNHQ!

Keeping in mind the different ages for consent around the world does Amnesty have a specific age in mind for worldwide acceptance of prostitution? I believe 14 is the age of consent in Austria, would men be allowed to pay a 14 year old for sex there if they accepted your model?

[JugglingFromHereToThere]

It's interesting isn't it - some things are more of an absolute right and with other things it's more of a right to seek or pursue something.
So in the famous American constitution it states a right to "Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness"
Clearly not everyone can be 100% happy 100% of the time, but we all have a right to seek happiness.
Even with life we cannot have an absolute right to this because we all die one day - but we have a right to assistance to enable life to continue, and for our life not to be taken by others ?

So, with something like sex, surely if we have rights around this it's more about a right to seek consensual sex with others?
It reminds me of the right to have children, again sadly not an absolute right (IMHO) but a right to seek and pursue this for ourselves with assistance from others?

[SabrinaMulhollandJjones]

Kate, I would like to ask what Amnesty are doing to protect the human rights of women and children trafficked for prostitution?

I don't agree with Amnesty's gender-neutral language in their policy, or their assertion that men have a 'human right' to buy women for sex.

[SabrinaMulhollandJjones]

I would also like to echo Beach's comments that none of us want to see the sellers of sex criminalised.

I also support the Nordic model.

[coppertop]

Your document refers to both men and women being able to buy sex.

Did you carry out any research regarding what percentage of 'buyers' are men and how many are women and, if so, what were your findings?

[JugglingFromHereToThere]

Before Kate joins us I wonder if someone could briefly explain the key points of the Nordic Model ? (It doesn't surprise me if the Scandinavians are providing a good lead in this area - they seem very strong for example on things like sex education)

[FairPhyllis]

I'd like to echo Beach's comment. If we get an hour of flanneling based on misapprehensions about which parties involved in prostitution we want to see criminalised, I'll be very disappointed indeed.

I do not want to see prostituted persons criminalised. I want the punters and pimps to be penalised. I support the Nordic model too.

[sonjdol]

I have the impression that there is really no knowledge here about HOW criminalization contributes to human rights violations towards sex workers, so please read some links to understand, why Amnesty's call for decrminalization actually makes a lot of sense.

Focusing on how bad clients are completely takes the focus away from the way states legitimately violate sex workers' human rights, where sex work is criminalized.

Why can't you all for once try to understand this background?

www.opensocietyfoundations.org/reports/arrest-violence-human-rights-violations-against-sex-workers-11-countries-central-and-eastern

www.opensocietyfoundations.org/sites/default/files/fida_20081201.pdf

tgeu.org/Greek_Authorities_Should_Immediately_End_the_Ongoing_Human_Rights_Violations_Against_Sex_Workers

www.eldis.org/go/home&id=59250&type=Document#.UvDCYUJ5NcE

www.undp.org/content/rbap/en/home/library/hiv_aids/legal-protections-against-hiv-related-human-rights-violations--e/

www.globalizationandhealth.com/content/pdf/1744-8603-9-33.pdf

www.opendemocracy.net/5050/geetanjali-misra/feminist-defence-of-sex-workers%E2%80%99-rights

faculty.washington.edu/lerum/Policy%20Brief%20FINAL.pdf

www.smartglobalhealth.org/blog/entry/sex-workers-rights-are-human-rights

[VegetariansTasteLikeChicken]

Well, I would hope she would have rights as any other worker. I would not want her to be arrested as "pimp" or "brothel owner" for working together with a friend to create protection.

Most "Other workers" don't need to work with someone else to protec themselves form rape

No one on this thread wants to criminalize prostituted women from what I can see. So your whining about feminism trying to make them vulnerable to police etc is a bit ridiculous. Personally I hope my daughter is never involved in a "profession" where her being raped or being on the receiving end of physical violence is almost assumed. I hope you haven't got children.

"About 80% of women in prostitution have been the victim of a rape. It's hard to talk about this because..the experience of prostitution is just like rape. Prostitutes are raped, on the average, eight to ten times per year. They are the most raped class of women in the history of our planet. " (Susan Kay Hunter and K.C. Reed, July, 1990 "Taking the side of bought and sold rape," speech at National Coalition against Sexual Assault, Washington, D.C. ) Other studies report 68% to 70% of women in prostitution being raped (M Silbert, "Compounding factors in the rape of street prostitutes," in A.W. Burgess, ed., Rape and Sexual Assault II, Garland Publishing, 1988; Melissa Farley and Howard Barkan, "Prostitution, Violence, and Posttraumatic Stress Disorder," 1998, Women & Health.)78% of 55 women who sought help from the Council for Prostitution Alternatives in 1991 reported being raped an average of 16 times a year by pimps, and were raped 33 times a year by johns. (Susan Kay Hunter, Council for Prostitution Alternatives Annual Report, 1991, Portland, Oregon) 85% of prostitutes are raped by pimps. (Council on Prostitution Alternatives, Portland, 1994)

[FrothyDragon]

Good morning, Amnesty.

Given the high number of women and young girls who enter prostitution having experienced childhood and sexual abuse, how do you propose to protect vulnerable women? Or does the right of men to have sex trump their wellbeing?

How will you ensure that all women who are being prostituted are doing so of their own free will?

Are you aware of the links between prostitution and both addiction and poverty? Are you vowing to eradicate these issues for women? If so, are you aware it will likely decrease the number of women in prostitution?

In her book, The Equality Illusion, Kat Banyard states that 100% of women in prostitution have experienced violence from a 'customer'. Which is more important; the male right to sex, or the female right not to experience such violence?

[SabrinaMulhollandJjones]

JugglingFromHereTo There: Key points of the Nordic model:

Sellers of sex are decriminalised.

Buyers of sex are criminalised.

Sellers of sex are offered exit routes/ training programmes/ comprehensive social service support to escape prostitution.

There are population-wide educational initiatives to promote gender sexual equality and to educate on the damage caused by prostitution and involvement of organised crime in the sex industry.

It seeks to reduce the demand for commercialised sex that fuels sex trafficking.

Over 80% of the Swedish population are in favour of the Nordic Model.

[sonjdol]

Hi everyone who claims that a 13 year old "in prostitution" should be called a prostitute rather than a victim of child sexual abuse:

Child sexual abuse is child sexual abuse and needs to be tackled through laws for child sexual abuse. Prostitution laws for adults have nothing to do with this.

[JugglingFromHereToThere]

Thanks Sabrina.

As I suspected the Scandinavians are ahead of many of the rest of us in thinking in this area.
I would support such an approach being adopted here as well.

[Grennie]

You say you are simply at the consultation stage. If thatis true, why did activactively campaign against the introduction of the nordic model in NI?

[VegetariansTasteLikeChicken]

Yes but when the average age of a woman is 13 when she enters prostitution you can't ignore that fact can you? Or maybe you can.

Very few women get to 18 and for no other reason think having sex with strangers would be great fun. And especially not in countries that amnesty works with.

[sonjdol]

"Most "Other workers" don't need to work with someone else to protec themselves form rape"

I am not sure about that. Housemaids for instance experience a much higher rate of sexual abuse than other workers, because they are ISOLATED.

Also, workers' rights have always been better protected, when people could legally look put for each other, call the police if someone else was abused. Why should that be prohibited in the case of sex work? Are you realizing how you are actually all arguing for a less secure environment here? You are all indirectly supporting that sex workers shoudl work alone, because you rather arrest their friends as pimps?
I am honestly very appalled.

[Grennie]

You say Amnesty that you worked with sex worker organisations to develop your proposed prostitution policy. Which organisations did you work with?

[Grennie]

Also if sex work is just work, do you think unemployed men and women should have to take jobs in brothels?

[JustineMumsnet]

Kate Allen, Director of Amnesty International UK, is in the building and will be getting go on questions soon.

[sonjdol]

It makes no sense to say that the "average age of entry" is 13. Coz average implies that for every 40 year old there must be at least a one year old.... entering prostitution....oh wait. Why don't we call that "child sexual exploitation"?

[JugglingFromHereToThere]

Hi sonjol although there is considerable consensus here I don't think "we are all" arguing for anything (although there does seem strong support for the Nordic Model ?) - but I don't think everyone thinks that sex workers working together should be arrested as pimps by any means (especially if they are both/all women ?)

[Grennie]

Why in your policy document do you not view poverty as a form of coercion? Lots of women before entering the sex industry are homeless. I fail to understand why you do not consider that circumstance coercion.

[JustineMumsnet]

Btw given the volume of questions, if you've asked more than one, you're unlikely to get an answer to all - so do try to think what the one question you want to see answered is, rather than fire off three...

[KateAllenAmnestyInternational]

Hi everybody, thank you for inviting me. Really interested to be part of this debate. I haven’t been in a debate of this kind online before, so hope I don’t give too lengthy answers, which is my main worry!

[SabrinaMulhollandJjones]

sonfdal, women and children are trafficked to meet the demand for commercialised sex. You cannot reduce the trafficking without reducing the demand.

The nordic model is the only model that works on reducing the demand for commercialised sex, and supports the victims of trafficking.