Live webchat with Amnesty International Tuesday 4th Feb, 11-12pm

[KatieMumsnet]

Following the leaking of an Amnesty International policy document 'Decriminalisation of Sex Work: Policy Background', which argues that men who buy sex are ‘exercising their autonomy’ and should be allowed to do so ‘free from government interference’ there has been considerable discussion on the site and requests for a webchat.

Today, Kate Allen, Director of Amnesty International UK will be here between 11-12pm to answer your questions.

Please do join us live on Tuesday or ask your question on this thread in advance. Just a quick reminder that it’s one question per person; take a look at our webchat guidelines, here.

Best

MNHQ

You know amnesty that many sex worker organisations, are fronts for pimps. I thought you would have realised that now with your experience of ISWU and Douglas Fox.

How does giving men a legal right to purchase sex protect the human rights of these women?

'And of course, slavery and the sale of organs are and should be illegal.'

But not men buying sex?

Why?

How is that different?

I believe you know that was the question being asked, and you have refused to answer it.

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^ this

What percentage of men worldwide hold the wealth? So if you want to increase your donations simply campaign to support mens rights to buy sex as no doubt they'll increase their donations.

Kate most people on this forum and lots of feminist group have a great admiration for AI and its work. This leak proposal has been very damaging to AI's reputation and the way your organisation has handled the issue since then (including today on this webchat) is making things worse. Many people feel AI is not being candid about this proposal, where it came from, what its aims are and how the consultation process will be carried out. Many people are concerned about AI's human rights approach that focuses on the right to be a buyer or seller of sex, rather than an examination of the true and gendered context, the power imbalance and the part prostitution has to play in the oppression of women generally.

I believe this web chat is not helping.

@Creeping

I totally understand how decriminalising sex workers might improve their situation. I am all for it.

I totally don't understand how decriminalising punters would improve sex workers' situations.

It reinforces and strengthens the power imbalance that already exists, which can only be detrimental for those sex workers who have not made a positive choice for their job, but are coerced to be a prostitute (e.g. by poverty or pimp) and don't think they have any other option but to be a prostitute.

Hi Creeping

The question of whether to criminalise or decriminalise punters is a key question in our consultation. One view is that criminalising the punters still drags sex workers into huge contact with criminal justice systems. I go back to what I was saying about the swedish model which does criminalise the punters, and whether that model will work to support he human rights of sex workers in an environment where the police and criminal justice system are not of the same standard as the Swedish system. Our consultation is about a worldwide policy, not just UK, or Europe, what would work to protect a women living in the slums of Nairobi from a brutal and corrupt police force.

KateAllenAmnestyInternational Tue 04-Feb-14 11:39:14

Just to answer a question from twitter

'Would be really interested to know if Amnesty believes that consent can be bought?'

I guess at the heart of this question is 'does a sex worker have a choice?' I agree that in an imperfect world many women end up in sex work as an economic last resort, as Amnesty, we're not judging and are open to the thought that some others may have chosen this freely. Our consultation is now about the best way to protect the human rights of those who for whatever reason are sex workers.

To paraphrase Sheldon Lee Cooper, in what universe is that an answer? It's just words, just noise.

Kate, how do think a punter verifies that a prostitute is 'freely' consenting (setting aside, for the moment, the very problematic issue of 'buying' consent).

How does a punter distinguish between a trafficked woman, how does he ensure she has not been coerced?

How will your policy protect the vulnerable? Because it seems to me that as it stands, Amnesty's policy will enshrine the punters' "right" to buy, and decriminalise the prostitute (and we're all in agreement with the latter).

Do you not think the Merseyside model of policing is of the same 'standard' as the Swedish police system?
Do you not realise that police in Scotland regularly participate in training on commercial sexual exploitation which takes the view (echoing Scottish law) that prostitution is violence against women?
Do you not think Sweden had to train its police?

What I was saying is that in an imperfect world, women's choices can often be limited. Living in poverty with few options can lead to women engaging in sex work. In that situation, we at Amnesty are trying to find the best way to protect the human rights of those women.

Surely the only way to "protect the human rights of those women" is to get them out of prostitution (if that is what the woman wants)? Harm reduction does not give them back their human right to bodily integrity . It accepts that they do not have that fundamental human right.

Still, at least Kate's above post is an admission that prostitution is overwhelming gendered (women are fucked, men fuck them) and that the women are just going to have to suck it up.

Do you really believe decriminalisation of pimps and punters is going to protect prostitutes the the slums of Nairobi? How? It's just fluff you are not answering any questions properly and any respect I had for AI and yourself is completely gone.

@Grennie"
That is a big accusation to make. Sex worker organisations are IMO what they sound like- organisations comprised of sex workers (or mostly sex workers) who fight for their rights and whatever laws/models are safest for them to work in (or allow them to get out if they so wish).

"Our consultation is about a worldwide policy, not just UK, or Europe, what would work to protect a women living in the slums of Nairobi from a brutal and corrupt police force."

Sorry this is just bullshit. Decriminalising pimps and punters will help women in the slums of Nairobi. Get real.

And by they'll I mean pimps and punters. The men in my family are disgusted by AI

What I was saying is that in an imperfect world, women's choices can often be limited. Living in poverty with few options can lead to women engaging in sex work. In that situation, we at Amnesty are trying to find the best way to protect the human rights of those women.

Would it not be more useful to then try and put money towards improving those option rather than channeling funding to the very situation that you admit is "imperfect".

@lizziedahlia

Thank you Kate for reacting to the concerns being expressed here by taking the time to come and represent Amnesty ? very much appreciated.

Like many others here, I?ve been a proud member of Amnesty since setting up a group 25 years ago when I was at school. More recently I?ve been delighted to encourage my 11-year-old to get involved in his school Amnesty group, and in the Christmas greetings campaign. For me, however, this issue is a deal breaker though and I feel desperately sad that I may have to explain to my son that I feel I can no longer remain a member.

Like many others, I?m horrified at what Amnesty is proposing, for so many reasons. I?ve read the draft proposal, and the minutes of the meeting at which the proposal/consultation system is discussed, and one key question for me is which organisations representing sex workers you have worked with on drafting the proposal? And have you also worked with similar organisations in developing countries? I work in international development and feel very much that this proposal reads as if it has been written without a sense of the realities of poverty and lack of choice faced by women in many of the countries in which you work, and the appalling extent to which this is gendered. I would fully support Amnesty?s work to address the structural issues that lead this to be the case, but I feel that this proposal is simply endorsing the hideous exploitation that many women are subject to, and massively glossing over the issue of (lack of) consent in kind of context that I?ve seen all too often in my own experiences at work. I would also fully support Amnesty if it decided to opt for the Nordic model.

Thank you

Hi lizziedahlia,

Thank you for all your support for Amnesty over many years, and I really hope that we can get to the end of this consultation with you still a part of Amnesty.

The driving force for this policy is absolutely as you say: it's trying to see what our position should be particularly for those women and men who live in poverty, lack choices and end up in sex work, and are incredibly vulnerable to the policing and legal systems of their countries. I am looking forward to hearing from Amnesty members in Africa, Asia and Latin America and hearing their views in this debate. I'm sure that they'll be thinking about the Nordic model and other possibilities. We will bring the whole Amnesty movement together to find the right policy, which means that we do our best work to support the people that you are concerned about.

As an Amnesty member, please do join in the UK consultation.

What recourse would a prostituted woman have if she is harmed by a client who has the legal right to buy her?

I can't believe quite how shit the answers are!

you do need a policy on this obviously and it should be a good thing that AI are getting round to this but this is not with women's health, interests and sexual needs and desires at heart is it? not even a bit, in fact you have put me off my afternoon wank :(

I can't even stop supporting the organisation because I did that ages ago due to the repeated emotionally manipulative and slightly traumatising material you kept sending demanding more and more money

Well Kate you have given an utterly cowardly performance here but I expect you know that anyway.

Many thanks to Bindelj for exposing the leaked document.

Excellent question Sabrina.
If nothing else, at least this webchat should hopefully bring home to Amnesty International that their policies, in regards to this issue, and the motivations behind them are under scrutiny.

Also it's highly offensive to call a situation where women are raped/violently assaulted/ drugged and enslaved..as "imperfect"

Yes DoctorTwo I agree that the aspect of vulnerable women in poverty having few options and little meaningful choice has not been adequately addressed, either in the so-called draft policy (let's hope it can be substantially revised) or in today's web-chat

Some fantastic answers here, none of which have come from Kate... Kate, as of yet, you've failed to give any real answer as to how AI intends to protect women forced into prostitution. Is this because, where women are involved, AI doesn't care?

Oh my God Kate, why do you start using terms like "punters" or "Nordic Model", when really there is no Nordic Model and describing a client as "punter" is already very discriminatory.

SuperLoudPoppingAction :"Do you not think the Merseyside model of policing is of the same 'standard' as the Swedish police system?"

ah the Merseyside model. That I do support and would like to see implemented.

The Merseyside model does not criminalize buying or the selling of sex (if done between consenting adults), but it does treat crimes (assault, rape etc) against sex workers as hate crimes.