Children's bedtimes and sleep problems: read Professor Tanya Byron's answers to your questions

[GeraldineMumsnet]

We're delighted that consultant clinical psychologist Prof Tanya Byron is our webchat guest on Monday evening to answer your questions about children's sleep - how much they need at different ages, how you can stop bedtimes turning into a battle, and how can you encourage your children to sleep through the night.

Tanya is leading the Bedtime Live team on Channel Four on Tuesday evenings at 8pm, trying to provide parents with techniques to get under-10s into bed by 9pm and to get teens into good sleep habits.

You've already been discussing her warnings about the effects of sleep deprivation on children's development on this thread.

So, whether your children will be soundly asleep or deploying endless delaying tactics at 9pm on Monday, do come and put your question about children's sleep to Tanya.

You can find out more here about Bedtime Live and the topics it has covered so far. The next prog (Tues 9 April, 8pm) will look at the effect of lack of sleep on first-time fathers.

@CreatureRetorts

My babies slept better once they were on their tummies - they had reflux.

DrTanya do you know how many babies may be Undiagnosed with silent reflux or intolerances which may impact on sleep? (certainly did mine)

Yes this can be a problem. Good to see a paediatrician if you think this is happening with your child. Gentle meds can help.

Any advice re the early waking questions?

Hi
I have a 5 and half month old who did sleep through from 7-15 weeks but then just stopped. He isn't ready for bed before 9 as too alert we have tried putting to bed earlier but doesn't work. He goes to sleep fine in his cot without much of a problem however he is waking atleast 4 times a night and won't sleep longer than 2 hour stretches. I have tried cutting milk out but to no success and am reluctant to totally as he isn't drinking much during the day. Iv tried the sitting down next to cot when he wakes with hands through bars on his chest to comfort but this can result in up to an hour Or more of screaming. Milk does settle him back to sleep however. I'm back to work and find the hour or more of screaming to get him back to sleep each time hard work along with the lack of sleep being up and down all night. He is very tired and fights sleeping during the day. Even the doctor has said how tired he seems. I just don't no what to do any more for my own sanity and his health. Any suggestions gratefully received.

@ImNotCute

How much crying do you think is acceptable when sleep training a toddler?

My 15 month old is mostly fed to sleep. After watching your programme I tried for 4 nights to settle him with a gradual retreat method but he was hysterical, it felt wrong. The baby of a similar age in your programme didn't seem to cry at all. I'm back to feeding to sleep for now.

It might be that you need to do intermittent reassuring which means leave the room and come in at 2 and then 5 minute intervals to sssshhh and reassure him. Feeding to sleep will never help him learn to fall asleep on his own.

I wonder whether your presence in the room was harder for him hence intermittent reassuring might work better. He might cry a bit but you often appearing helps him know he has not been abandoned (this is why I am NOT a fan of controlled crying leaving kids to cry for long periods).

Give it aweek 10 days. Good luck.

Thanks so much for replying Tanya. So, I think we'll try putting him to bed a little earlier because more often than not, he's pretty grizzly by 7pm, and does fall asleep on the bottle. I really hope that does the trick. Are you saying that because of the way we have been putting him to bed, that is the reason he wakes in the night? he usually settles after a few ounces of milk

Intermittent reassuring sounds just the same as controlled crying - just phrased in a more PC way!

@nellyjelly

Any advice re the early waking questions?

Work out when your child wakes and calculate whether they are waking early because (with naps) they have had enough sleep. See BEDTIME LIVE website for information.

If this is the case then reduce daytime naps or put to sleep later.

If older child then put a lamp on a timer and reward for not coming to your room until the light switches on. Set timer near waking time and work backwards by 15 mins over next days.

Also blackout curtains are good!

@IwishIwasmoreorganised

Intermittent reassuring sounds just the same as controlled crying - just phrased in a more PC way!

Traditionally CC means long stretches of crying alone which can stress little ones and parents out.

Intermittent reassuring means brief non reinforcing appearances more regularly.

Staying in the room and dong Gradual Withdrawal Can make some kids more agitated because they don't understand why a parent is there and not interacting with them.

Do what works best for you and your child.

Hi! I've never posted on a webchat before - I hope I've figured it out. I am mum to my lovely little girl and also a psychologist. I'm wondering what your thoughts are re a lot of these techniques being based in behaviourist frameworks - do you see a conflict with what we know about from attachment theory about children's early needs to feel safe and secure? Thanks!

@CouthySaysEatChoccyEggs

I have a 2.2yo that has been dxd with hyperactivity 'with a high probability of ADHD'. He has never slept for more than 4 hours in one go. NEVER. He is also being assessed for Autism next month, and has a severe speech delay, only has about 10 single words. He can't express his needs or wants to me.

He doesn't cry, is in his own bed (though we have no choice but to share a room, which also has the tumble dryer in, as well as other things that have nowhere else to live, like my craft drawers).

I had to take him out of his cot at a very young age as he would climb to the top of it, and throw himself over the top. It wasn't safe, so he has had a toddler bed since then.

He wakes for 'milk' (neocate active, a amino acid based hypoallergenic milk replacement) once in the night - but he is on a very restricted diet due to multiple severe allergies, and his dietician says that he still needs this.

That I can cope with, as all I have to do is pour it from the flask and give it to him.

Problem is that his 'night' where he only wakes once is from 1am to 5am usually. Sometimes if he's extra tired, he will sleep from 9pm to 11pm, then be up for two hours, then go back to sleep at 1/2am.

And then he's awake for the day. He's not crying, he's just active. Running around, pulling things out of drawers, climbing UP the bookshelf (and I do mean up, right to the top), jumping on his bed, spinning in circles while saying 'eeeeeeeeeeee'...

If I put him back in bed, he just waits until I have lay down again, and then gets up. He never cries when I put him back in bed, he just gets up.

I can do pick up put back 100+ times and he STILL won't stay in bed.

I can only carry that on for two days as it is a huge strain on me because I'm disabled myself, and have no support. (I have arthritis and epilepsy)

Is there anything I can try other than medication (HV has suggested melatonin) that can help? I don't want to go to medication unless I've tried everything else I can think of.

It's not so much an issue of him crying or anything, as him just not needing much sleep. How do I get him to adjust his sleep pattern? I would rather he slept from 2am - 6am. I struggle to get up at 5am!

He still has a nap in the day, but it is only around 30-45 mins. And I CAN'T stop that or keep him awake, because the minute I go to cook dinner, he drops off for it. I might have been keeping him awake since lunchtime, but then he goes at dinner, so I've given up on trying to keep him awake because then he has his nap too late and falls asleep even later.

Melatonin is the chemical that the brain produces in order for us to fall asleep. Some children may need it to shift their sleep pattern and help them learn to fall asleep by becoming drowsy.

I'd consult a paediatrician who if they do prescribe will do so in a way that offers a regime to rebalance arousal levels in your child but as their body learns to sleep will reduce it until it is no longer necessary.

Hi, sorry to ask again, i think someone else asked about this too.

do you have any suggestions for dealing with what appears to be night terrors & sleep walking? Is this a behavioural thing that can respond to training?

Thanks for your response Tanya. You might be right that me being there made him more upset. I need to think about it some more, i'm not sure I'd be happy to leave him.

Hi Tanya
Loving the show! Just a quickie (something a bit different).
My older two children (10 and 8), tend to be a bit bored and lethargic during the day - it's an effort to drag them out to do things, but after teatime (5-6pm) they will willingly go out and play, play play. And they get on really well. I have to drag them in for bedtime (they are asleep by 9.30 usually). It is difficult to get them to wind down for bed though they have always had a good bedtime routine involving bath and stories.
Any ideas?
Many thanks
Emma

Imnotcute my 15 month old sometimes settled faster if I leave her for a couple of mins. She'll cry out but stops quickly (I time it). Any longer and I go in and cuddle her to sleep. She doesn't fall asleep on the boob though as I feed her earlier.

@sparklytoes

Hi! I've never posted on a webchat before - I hope I've figured it out. I am mum to my lovely little girl and also a psychologist. I'm wondering what your thoughts are re a lot of these techniques being based in behaviourist frameworks - do you see a conflict with what we know about from attachment theory about children's early needs to feel safe and secure? Thanks!

I don't recommend sleep training in its purest behavioural sense before 6 months because the early days and months of bonding need to take precedence and respect the physiological norms of the newborn in terms of feeding etc.

Falling in love is chaotic and so I am not a fan of prescribed training from day one to suit us and our schedules.

HOWEVER everyone must do what feels right for them and once an attachment is formed and weaning going well (so no need for nighttime nutrition) behavioural techniques can and do work. Behavioural techniques also have a profound impact on relationships because once a child sleep, so do their parents and all relate better and happier during the day.

Thanks creatureretorts, good to hear.

19 month old has sleep association prob- needs parent in room to fall asleep.

Continuously stands himself up in cot & needs to be physically laid back down - we go thorough this for 20-30 mins each evening then one of us is trapped in his room for 30-60 mins before we can creep out

Slight noise wakes him & we are back at square 1.

He then wakes 1-4 times in night & we go through it all again.

How can we break cycle of one of us needing to be in room for him to fall asleep?

Thank you so much!

Don't know if age 6/7 is too old for your advice but...

My son is 7 this year and a very deep sleeper. So deep that he is unable to toilet train at night. Doesn't even notice if he completely soaks through. Has slept through every sort of instance such as falling out of bed, stitches in hospital, loud storms.

Will he grow out of this or should we seek help?

@UnderwaterBasketWeaving

Hi, sorry to ask again, i think someone else asked about this too.

do you have any suggestions for dealing with what appears to be night terrors & sleep walking? Is this a behavioural thing that can respond to training?

Night terrors are different to nightmares. Night terrors are where the child is asleep but flailing and and appears distressed. They generally appear at the same time each night because they signal when a child has a bumpy ride between two sleep cycles. Do NOT wake the child (they are not aware what is going on and will not remember them in the morning) just sit close by to make sure they are safe.

Work out when the child wakes and then wake them 15 minutes earlier each night and then help them back to sleep. That way you nterruptsbsleep the problematic sleep cycle change and after a few nights can recalibrate the cycles and sleep terrors disappear.

Thank you, I'll start keeping track of the time and try waking him. Thanks!

My daughter is 18 months. She's wakes for the day between 7 and 8am and naps around 11.30am for about 1 and a half to 2 hours. She hasn't had a 2nd nap in the last 2-3 months as she started to refuse it. So by 6ish she's tired. We start the bedtime routine at 6.30 and she's in bed by about 7.15 but, most nights, spends around an hour chatting, singing, shouting, crying. My partner goes to her regularly to settle her (I don't go as am breast feeding and she usually asks me for milk if I go!) but not sure what else to do. Is she overtired and needs an earlier bedtime or should we try a later bedtime if that's the time she seems to settle? Any advice?

@MoreSnowPlease

"Feeding to sleep will never help him learn to fall asleep on his own."

Really?! I disagree, sorry. Surely there's a reason babies fall asleep so easily feeding.

Don't think this chat is for me, thanks for your time on my question though.

Hi don't want you to feel I am dismissing what works for you. Probably answered too briefly (this typing is a killer)!

A child will fall asleep feeding but may then require feeding to get to sleep whenever they wake and so not learn to drop off themselves.

However whatever works for you and your child is more important than my or any other experts advice!

Nicknames, I have the same problem.

Dr Tanya I know night training is hormonal, but what can we do to help deep sleepers who still wet at night? My six year old is still in night time pants and is quite upset by it. But he just sleeps through soaking the bed without them. Do you advocate lifting as I have heard this just trains them to go at night?