You're hired! Live webchat on apprenticeships with education minister John Hayes, Tues 7 Feb, 11.15am

[KatieMumsnet]

We're delighted to be joined by John Hayes MP, Education Minister with particular responsibility for apprenticeships, careers guidance and vocational education.

John joins us in National Apprenticeship Week, which aims to persuade employers of the advantages of employing and supporting apprentices in their workplace and highlight the range of apprenticeships available in different sectors.

Apprenticeships now go up to degree level, and allow you to earn a wage as you train. John would specifically like to find out from Mumsnetters what your impressions are of apprenticeships are, do you think they're a path to a good career? And If not, why not?

Before becoming and MP John trained as a teacher and was the director of an award winning local computer company

Do post your question live on Tuesday, but if you're not able to join us - please do post away below.

MNHQ

I have a few questions for John Hayes:

I am concerned that young people will not know where to start if looking for an apprenticeship, and I am also concerned about those that are considering an apprenticeship or FE, and do not have the opportunity to discuss their options with a careers adviser. Questions below:

1. Many of the Connexions services in England have been significantly reduced, and some virtually closed down and only working with young people who have SEN/LDD, leaving many school/6th form/college leavers with no access to talk to an independent careers advisor from Connexions about their options, including apprenticeships. Mr Hayes do you think it is important that young people have the opportunity to talk to an independent specialist careers adviser, about apprenticeships before embarking on these programmes, some of which can be 4 yrs in length? If so, how when Connexions has almost gone in some areas, and if not why not?

1. How do you think that schools and teachers can replace the Connexions service when it comes to giving impartial careers advice on opportunities including apprenticeships? I work in this area, work in a school and my husband is also a teacher. I think apprenticeships are a good opportunity for young people, but I know that teachers and school staff do not know the first thing about what is available in the local area for young people, and what opportunities are available. Many of the teachers I work with cannot do a CV/covering letter for Yr11 students, the examples I see are appalling and would not get young people an interview, let alone a job.

I would be interested to hear your comments please

Good afternoon,

Mr Hayes I am also interested in apprenticeships on a personal level. I am a mother of two, a daughter aged 5 and a son aged 1 1/2. Recently I took redundancy from my permanent post, as it was to be deleted following funding cuts. I have now been officially unemployed for just over 6 months. Having worked as a manager in the public sector I see that vacancies at the level I was working are severely reduced. Despite having been shortlisted down to the final handful 4 times I have not been successful in finding alternative employment. I have therefore considered other options including setting up my own business and the possibility of retraining in a new area of work. I looked into apprenticeships as one alternative. Unfortunately neither the local college or JCP office were able to tell me about apprenticeships for people of my age (40 yrs old). I also see that most apprenticeships are paid at a basic rate. I could not entertain this as an option as after paying for childcare and travel - I would be worse off than if I continued to sign on receiving £67 pw. Has any consideration been given to supporting women who wish to retrain after a career break to return to the job market? What sort of opportunities are there for people in my situation?

Many thanks in advance for your response to my question.

Hi,
I remember a few years ago (in better economic times) a young man coming to see me when I was a Careers Adviser. He had gained 9 GCSE's and wanted to pursue a career as a plumber with the full support of his mother.
His school however had other ideas and was pressurising him to stay on for A Level's telling him that apprenticeships were worthless compared to academic study.

He was also finding it extremely difficult to find someone willing to take him on and the college course available for him were innappropriate due to his academic success.
I have two questions:

1. What are you going to do about redressing the balance in favour of apprenticeships as valid career options for academically able students?
2. How are you going to increase the take up rate on behalf of employers willing to offer an apprenticeship, especially in these 'economically challenging' times?

Dear Mr Hayes,

I'm concerned about a couple of aspects of apprenticeships.

Firstly, I know of apprenticeships where I live in big supermarkets which are incredibly short (a matter of months) and I'm pretty sure all those going on the apprenticeship are existing staff. So basically it looks to me like the supermarket is getting taxpayers' money to offer training to staff which it should be offering anyway. Surely big profitable businesses have a duty to train their staff (out of their own pockets)? And how is this a real training opportunity? It's not going to help the many local NEETs if a) it's only for existing staff and b) it's a short meaningless qualification that any other employer would laugh at if they saw it on a CV?

Secondly, I'd like to know what you're doing about the fact that the apprenticeship system seems to mirror the gender stereotypes and the pay gap that exist in the wider workforce. I remember hearing you on Woman's Hour a year or two ago talking about girls and apprenticeships. There were some shocking statistics on that programme about how few girls do things like engineering apprenticeships (something like 1% if I remember correctly!) and how most girls are doing things like hairdressing which is really badly paid.

Thirdly, how can a young person who isn't living at home possibly hope to live on £2.60 per hour?

Thanks

Hello Mr Hayes, I would like to ask you a couple of questions if I may.

1. In 2009 former minister, Mr Alan Milburn, chaired a study on social mobility advising that much better careers advice was needed in order to 'break the glass ceiling'. Could you outline how this government would see this being achieved with fewer guidance professionals available to young people at key decision making stages in their lives.

2. I currently work with Care Leavers and would like to ask if any further support will be given to this client group should they decide to opt for an apprenticeship. As it stands they are financially responsible for themselves from the age of 18 and often live independent of their families. They quite often struggle financially to live on an apprenticeship wage after they have paid their household bills and travel.

Hello, just flagging that the timing for this webchat has been brought forward from noon to 11.15am. Thanks to everyone who has posted so far.

Hello Mr Hayes,

The biggest burden to small businesses taking on young people who don't necessarily have the most academic CVs is the immense amount of red tape, "rights" legislation, and other assorted socialist nonsense, much of it coming from the EU. Big companies like Rolls-Royce with HR flunkies galore can afford it; a 2 person family firm can't. But we all know that small businesses are the real engine of the economy, and the biggest employers.

What are you doing to repeal red tape, undo Labour's disastrous mountains of legislation, fight diktats from unelected eurocrats and thereby make it easier/cheaper for a small business to take a chance on someone? Cameron's "one in, one out" PR-soundbite on regulation is a recipe for disaster - what we need is more like "one in, 100 out"!

Hello Mr Hayes

(1) The coalition government has now said over and over that vocational training is not a good as academic qualifications. Schools should not be measured on any other qualifications than GCSEs. The measurement of the English Bacc has led some schools to make all children take a foreign language, whether or not they can read and write well in English. Funding for diplomas and other vocational courses, which had only just been established at great expense, have been stopped. How can the government on the one hand say that apprenticeships are to be encouraged but also say that vocational training and study is not good enough?

(2) How is the government going to ensure that more employers offer apprenticeships, and that they are real apprenticeships with formal training as they should be, not just cheap labour?

(3) Will the government be putting more funding into apprenticeships for the older end of the age bracket, the 18-24 year olds, now that increasing numbers of people are long term unemployed? (Rather than the previous system of most funding being directed at school leavers 16-17)

(4) The end of the Connexions service in most areas means young people have no support looking for work and training if their parents cannot provide it. There is no accurate figure on how many NEETS there are under 18. In my area it was above 10% when the economy was good. I hate to think what it is now. What is the government going to do to fill this gap and support young people to look for work, apprenticeships and training?

I want to echo vj32's point. People only seem to value what is 'measured'. For example, a few years ago no-one cared about how many pupils took a MFL to GCSE but now it is included in the EBacc, people are suddenly taking notice. However, for some reason, the Government only ever measures the academic side of life. I think that there should some form of schools' league table for vocational qualifications too. It would raise the status of vocational qualifications and stop schools from pressurising certain pupils to take unsuitable (for them i.e. academic) qualifications.
Don't repeat the error made with Grammars and Sec Mods where all the attention and money went to the Grammar side and they left the Sec Mods on the wayside. I approve of the idea of the EBacc and of removing 'equivalents' from the GCSE tables BUT don't leave it at that. If we are going to believe that BTec and the like are valid routes to take then let's celebrate successes in them in their own right and 'measure' them.

I have a couple of questions for Mr Hayes

Why are schools still insisting on directing the less able girls to vocational courses for childcare? The childcare sector has changed dramatically in the last decade, with many practitioners qualified to degree level.People entering the profession need to have the right skills, academic as well as personal, to educate as well as care for young children. I have seen many young students who have been led to believe that they can do well at childcare because the entry requirements are so low- which is simply not true.

Secondly, what happens to apprentices when they finish their apprenticeship and are simply replaced by another apprentice as companies are under no obligation to keep them on? What support is there available for young people finding themselves on the dole with training but no job?

Should 'Internships' as a form of apprenticeship, be OUTLAWED if no pay is forthcoming?

What is Mr Hayes' view on the morality of firms who dangle the carrot of possible future employment before the noses of university leavers, stipulating that these young people must fund their own lunches and fares to and from work in a spirit of gratitude at the goodness of an employer providing 'work experience' in accepting their unpaid labour?

You've probably inferred that I and, I'm guessing, the vast majority of mums and grans view unpaid internships as slavery, pure and simple.

Will anything be done to protect new graduates and other vulnerable unemployed people from this practice?

Dear Mr Hayes,

I'd like to ask what is being done about the fact that Universities are offering teacher training courses saying to their prospective students that there are great opportunities awaiting them... Vacancies for trainee teachers are scarce. Many of those who graduated are unable to find permanent jobs afterwards... You are subsidizing those courses with money paid towards bursaries etc and if people can't find jobs all that money and their time is wasted!

Thanks

Jobcentres are still focused on squeezing people into low-paid retail work rather than helping people reach their full potential on the right career path.

What are you doing about centralising careers advice effectively and making sure the jobcentres do their jobs properly?

I had not signed on since the 1980s and found on returning last year that jobcentres had not changed, save for a smoking ban on the premises.

Hello
My fear as a parent, is that my children will not be given the correct advice - as I understand it, the new careers service is mainly web or telephone based with face to face advice being very different in practice throughout the country. How can you ensure that this does not become another postcode lottery? I do think that this aspect needs re-thinking as it's difficult enough to communicate with some teenagers without using body language and eye contact to help guide if you are on the right lines with them or not.

Also, if individual schools are required to 'buy in' a careers package they feel suits their students (which sounds great in theory but is doomed to failure in practice IMO), how can you ensure that they do this without giving them any additional money or ringfence budget allocations? Surely the school could take advantage of this arrangement eg a poster with a website on, which may benefit a few of their students but leave the vast majority without impartial advice or guidance. As a government you are failing our young people if you don't put in place processes which schools must adhere to, in order to make sure that ALL students recieve impartial careers advice from a fully qualified professional.

I signed up to do a 4yr apprenticeship when I was 16 (20 years ago). The company decided 3 years in that they didn't want apprentices any more. Please sure this doesn't happen in newer apprenticeships.

I did however get a good lesson on how companies can screw you over, and eventually did go on to university and get a degree in Computer Science.

just another quick question:

Can you please clarify what the minimum requirements are in relation to schools providing careers and guidance?

Sorry-going to add another thing. In the local authority where I leave the majority of Connexions staff have been made redundant and both of the drop-in connexions centres shut down. As it currently stands unless a young person have a statement of special educational needs, they do not have any access to see a careers/connexions adviser. They are told to use a website. When my children get older and have to make decisions about their futures I hope there are dedicated careers professionals employed to help them, not just teachers who have no specialist knowledge. This is especially important in the current economic climate as the tuition fees for university will mean many more young people choose to try and gain an apprenticeship, instead of undertaking a traditional degree through university.

Mr Hayes, I am a Specialist Speech and Language Therapist working with secondary aged children with Specific Language Impairment.

The students I work with have normal intelligence, are fast visual learners and tend to do well with hands-on tasks and demonstrations. However, they don't fare well with academic learning or learning through talk only. In a world increasingly obsessive about "soft skills" (communication etc), they are severely disabled in a way that 50 years ago, they would not have been.

Unfortunately, there is very little provision for these students at post-16. We currently have a GCSE student who is tremendously hard-working, reliable and personable but struggles with verbal communication. His father had similar difficulties but was able to gain an apprenticeship to a trade and has been gainfully employed for his entire life and supported a family of 5 without needing to rely on benefits. The chances that our student will be able to do similar are, frankly, minimal. We were pretty much told by the Connexions advisor in our area that apprenticeships (his favoured option) were non-existent. He will instead be expected to go to college where it is highly likely that without the level of support he has had in a specialist unit at secondary to access "learning through talk", he will fail.

The research tells us that, overwhelmingly, these students opt out of the system, with a huge proportion not in education, employment or training within months of leaving school. Long term unemployment is also high amongst this group, with anxiety, depression and isolation affecting many. These students are more likely to become involved with crime, with 70% of the youth offending population having some degree of speech or language impairment.

These kids NEED apprenticeships to trades. We need tradespeople. What's the problem? Why is there such a premium placed on very specific types of verbal and written communication that are inaccessible to many? These students would be an asset to the workplace, but they are frozen out by a system that doesn't afford them any opportunities to play to their strength and highlights their weaknesses.

I would strongly encourage meaningful apprenticeship opportunities for this group of students (and many others like them). I am strongly opposed to the loss of GCSE subjects such as fish husbandry. There needs to be a range of opportunity available to students with different learning abilities and preferences.

Mr Hayes, I work for a large public sector organisation and co-coordinate the engineering apprenticeship that we offer. This apprenticeship has so far proved to be extremely successful and has produced many promising employees.

In these times of austerity we are offering a fantastic opportunity to young people, but are having trouble promoting our scheme. Firstly the organisation seems to view apprenticeships as a token gesture and a thing of the past, as a result my role in promoting and supporting the apprentices is seen as secondary to my day to day role. This is despite the positive impact it has so far had to the organisation. As a result we are unable to devote resources to promoting the scheme and often do not have a wealth of applicants. I would like to know where we could turn for help and support to advertise and improve our scheme.

For apprenticeships to be a viable option for young people, employees need to be given the skills to develop these schemes, otherwise their true worth and potential will never be reached.

Secondly, as an engineering apprenticeship we have so far had a lack of female interest. We regularly contact colleges to encourage applicants and its extremely rare to find any girls in the room when we attend. I find it shocking that there really seems to have been no progress in encouraging more female participation since '60s. How could we widen our net to capture the interest of females and again are there any government initiatives?

Thank you for your time.

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Mr Hayes
I work for a training provider that provides high quality apprenticeships for business and see them as a real alternative for young people who can not, or do not want to, go into Higher Education. Many offer progression routes to Professional and Chartered Qualifications plus the opportunity to have relevant work experience on their CV.

I am also a mum, with a son due to take his options next year. What I see is a real lack of independent and robust career advice that sets out options for young people so they and their parents can make informed decisions about career choices and education.

What is the government doing to address this?

Hi - The Minister is in building and keen to get going. Welcome to Mumsnet John!

Hello, great to be here and looking forward to answering questions the best I can

Hello and welcome. I'm looking forward to your reply to some of the questions on here.

The government is introducing this April, a National Careers Service to advise people of all ages on the learning and careers options open to them. Schools are now obliged by law to secure independent careers advice for their pupils balanced between academic and vocational options. It's vital that young people, like your son, get the right advice to make the right choices

@Bucket19

Mr Hayes I work for a training provider that provides high quality apprenticeships for business and see them as a real alternative for young people who can not, or do not want to, go into Higher Education. Many offer progression routes to Professional and Chartered Qualifications plus the opportunity to have relevant work experience on their CV.

I am also a mum, with a son due to take his options next year. What I see is a real lack of independent and robust career advice that sets out options for young people so they and their parents can make informed decisions about career choices and education.

What is the government doing to address this?