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Biggest cultural shock you have come across?

731 replies

hibbledobble · 08/05/2017 14:11

What have you encountered while travelling that was your biggest cultural shock?

I'll go first: in Poland I saw families/extended families living 10+ in a 2 bedroom home. The concept of having a bedroom or even a bed to oneself is seemingly unheard of. Everyone sleeps in different beds each night, and beds are often shared. Having visitors in this set up is no problem either: everyone just rearranges. Water also came from Wells, lots of homes had no bathrooms. Ovens were these metal beasts that were plugged into the mains.

OP posts:
DJBaggySmalls · 09/05/2017 11:20

Flying Aeroflot.

Chavelita · 09/05/2017 11:28

Oh god, the servant culture of the Middle East. I knew it existed, but I assumed that ill treatment happened behind closed doors, because surely you wouldn't openly abuse and exploit someone?

Nope. Local acquaintances openly talking about their maids being forbidden to leave the house ("because the last one ran off"), issuing instructions to young women from SE Asia (who are forced to buy domestic uniforms from their own wages) without making eye contact let alone saying please or thank you, passport confiscations. A small boy fell over in the playground last weekend, and understandably cried for his mother. His mother actually checked to see that the nanny was busy before going to him herself. Every time I think I've adjusted to how batshit mental it is, someone excels themself.

God, yes to all of this. I once saw a small child fall into a pool at a party in Dubai, and his mother shouted to their housemaid (let's not go along with calling them the 'nanny', when it's seldom if ever true) who was collecting glasses to jump in and get him out. When I was probably goggling at her like a codfish, she did a sort of slightly self-conscious smirk, and gestured down at her outfit. Presumably I was supposed to grasp that she didn't want to wet her clothes, whereas the maid, clad in one of those pastel trousersuit uniforms, wouldn't mind.

And yes, the depressing swiftness with which new arrivals bought into the entire khafala system including passport confiscation and 'othering' of their maids ('Oh, they're happier sleeping on a mat on the floor - it's their culture) and apparently genuinely thinking they're being 'savvy' when they pick up maid tips from people who've lived there longer eg:

'I change my maids every year. I find it keeps them on their toes. The ones that stay longer get slack.'

'Just call an agency and ask them to email you some maid cvs. Print them off and put them on your desk. She will see them, for sure, and will not be able to contain herself. She will ask if you are replacing her. Then you can say that you were waiting to see if she could get more done and to your liking. That will get her back on her toes.'

And when one British 'madam' had had a conversation with her maid who was upset because of the suicide of a friend (who'd been a maid in Saudi impregnated by her employer), she was told 'Maybe you should change your maid for a more positive one.' (Actual quotes.)

And these people will have been until very recently ordinary lower-middle-class Brits living in suburban semi-detached houses in Nuneaton or Birmingham.

Deploycharitygoats · 09/05/2017 11:35

Yup Chavelita I was expressing mild frustration to a friend over my cleaner's knack of turning up just as DS2 is nodding off in my arms and her response was "of course, she's been with you over a year. You need a new one."

I need next month's trip back to the UK so, so badly.

KroplaBeskidu · 09/05/2017 11:38

I went to Samoa a couple of years ago and I was so shocked by how enormously fat nearly everyone is. But it's really hard to get decent meat so everyone eats horrible fatty off-cuts that are shipped in from Australia and New Zealand. Decent food was really expensive but I couldn't bring myself to eat the crap that the locals have to. I lost 5lbs in a week Blush

There was a C4 programme about it recently.

MadisonAvenue · 09/05/2017 11:42

About 10 years ago we were on a family road trip around California. We thought it might be interesting, while in San Diego, to walk across the border into Mexico. Firstly, there was no border control going from San Diego into Tijuana, just a gate to walk through.
Our then 7 year old son's first words on seeing the 'housing' was "What happened here?"
Walking around we were constantly harassed by beggars, even our children were being asked for money by children their sort of age. We didn't stay any longer than 30 minutes and spent longer waiting in the queue to get through border control back into the US.

clearsommespace · 09/05/2017 11:46

Interesting thread.
Quencher where are you from? I'm intrigued where in the world they think British school children are like that?
Brasty what is it about the workplace culture in France that was a culture shock for your friend? I think I have 'acclimatised' now although I still find all the hand-shaking and kissing a big waste of time and still get frustrated that people talk too much out of turn in meetings and on training courses.

brasty · 09/05/2017 12:03

My friend who worked in France found the French workplace very hierarchial, and very much about relating to your boss, and not working as part of a team. She also hated the amount of power the local mayor had in the small town they lived in.

NotCitrus · 09/05/2017 12:07

Norway, 1980s - being referred to as 'black' and pointed out by parents to their children. I'm white English with dark brown hair. It stopped when more expats from around the world moved there, including a couple actual black guys who started talking to me as a 'fellow black person'!

The national fish obsession was a bit much, and I got used to the swimming pools where men and women generally changed at different ends of the same communal room, but everyone was naked together in the sauna. Which meant returning to England in my late teens was a shock as I didn't get the paranoia over seeing nakedness.

The rudeness of American public service vs the obsequiousness of people being paid by you. My worst experience was trying to get a US passport replaced, queuing up in the NY office, no seats, just waiting in two lines for a couple hours. An elderly lady tried sitting on the floor but the guards pulled guns on her and told her to stand or else. Ditto when someone at the front of the other line offered to let the front person of her line in. Actually the NYPD were worse - couldn't even report my passport stolen as despite seeing a photocopy they refused to believe I had one, and turned out one of the desk guys couldn't write and the other spoke little English. The standard of English vs US police is shocking.

quencher · 09/05/2017 12:24

where are you from? I'm intrigued where in the world they think British school children are like that? I can't say but it was a Catholic school run by Irish nuns next to a convent.

NeverTwerkNaked · 09/05/2017 12:59

For me- going to central U.S.A and meeting wealthy, well educated, 15 year olds who had no idea about England, "England, is that near Paris?"

mommybunny · 09/05/2017 13:06

Re: Continental workplace culture - when I was working in Germany I worked with an American (I am one myself) for an American law firm, so culturally it wasn't too different from New York.

This colleague's wife (also American) worked in an investment bank and told us that whenever her German colleagues were going to meetings that would be conducted in English (i.e., with American and British people present) they would have to get together to remind each other of their first/Christian names, because when they went to meetings "in German" they would never dream of using them - it was always "Herr" this and "Frau" that (not forgetting of course to add any applicable "Professor" or "Doktor" - big faux pas if you did!).

I worked with many lawyers who had worked with their secretaries for decades and never knew their Christian names.

drspouse · 09/05/2017 13:09

going to central U.S.A and meeting wealthy, well educated, 15 year olds who had no idea about England, "England, is that near Paris?"

A friend of my DM's lives in Boston and her adult DS wanted to get away from home for university so chose one of the mountain/desert states (Arizona, New Mexico, that kind of area). When he said he was from New England the other students hadn't heard of it and thought he was from England...

Bluebeedee · 09/05/2017 13:11

People voting Conservative

Dowser · 09/05/2017 13:19

Tell us more baggy smalls

AprilLudgateDwyer · 09/05/2017 13:32

@Nellyphants I think my dh industry would grind to a halt if that were the case here! Haha

CheersMedea · 09/05/2017 13:44

Interesting about the Deep South/ North Florida. I've never been, but I've watched too many horror films, and I'd feel sure I'd be kidnapped and murdered at a gas station or Motel if I went to the Deep South.... Bill

On the Deep South subject of murder, why is it that in most American films featuring an evil weirdo psycho serial killer, the said evil weirdo psycho serial killer has an accent from the Deep South.

It doesn't matter whether the serial killing is set in Boston, New York, Chicago or Alaska, the serial killer always sounds like he's from Texas /Louisiana/ Georgia.

Is this because the films pander to a stereotype based in fact that there is a lot of weirdo psychos in the South? Or has the film industry itself created our perception that all serial killers come from the Deep South so now we are all scared????

Which came first? The chicken or the egg? The perception or the films?

StrangeLookingParasite · 09/05/2017 13:44

Has anyone ever experienced "service with a smile" in France?!

Many times. France is very much what you give is what you get. And no, like reality, the customer is not always right. I feel very at home here.

phoenix1973 · 09/05/2017 13:46

When I was in turkey, the rep was totally shocked that we were
A: not married
B: had a child
He tried to hide his shock, but didn't do a good job of it.

LaLegue · 09/05/2017 13:49

sorry Deploy I missed that you were not in the UK, in which case depending on where you are I might agree with you!

I feel I HAVE to respond to the comments below.

Visiting (local) friends in the Middle East who were wealthy and had three servants from SE Asia. I'd have used a better word but they were treated like servants and that shocked me. We mostly met outside the house but on the few occasions we went to their house I was horrified that these women were expected to silently wait on them hand and foot - no one in the family said thank you to them for, e.g., clearing cups away or even acknowledged they were in the room unless it was to tell them to do something.

Oh god, the servant culture of the Middle East. I knew it existed, but I assumed that ill treatment happened behind closed doors, because surely you wouldn't openly abuse and exploit someone?

Nope. Local acquaintances openly talking about their maids being forbidden to leave the house ("because the last one ran off"), issuing instructions to young women from SE Asia (who are forced to buy domestic uniforms from their own wages) without making eye contact let alone saying please or thank you, passport confiscations. A small boy fell over in the playground last weekend, and understandably cried for his mother. His mother actually checked to see that the nanny was busy before going to him herself. Every time I think I've adjusted to how batshit mental it is, someone excels themself.

God, yes to all of this. I once saw a small child fall into a pool at a party in Dubai, and his mother shouted to their housemaid (let's not go along with calling them the 'nanny', when it's seldom if ever true) who was collecting glasses to jump in and get him out. When I was probably goggling at her like a codfish, she did a sort of slightly self-conscious smirk, and gestured down at her outfit. Presumably I was supposed to grasp that she didn't want to wet her clothes, whereas the maid, clad in one of those pastel trousersuit uniforms, wouldn't mind.

'Oh, they're happier sleeping on a mat on the floor - it's their culture) and apparently genuinely thinking they're being 'savvy' when they pick up maid tips from people who've lived there longer e.g.:

'I change my maids every year. I find it keeps them on their toes. The ones that stay longer get slack.'

'Just call an agency and ask them to email you some maid cvs. Print them off and put them on your desk. She will see them, for sure, and will not be able to contain herself. She will ask if you are replacing her. Then you can say that you were waiting to see if she could get more done and to your liking. That will get her back on her toes.'

And when one British 'madam' had had a conversation with her maid who was upset because of the suicide of a friend (who'd been a maid in Saudi impregnated by her employer), she was told 'Maybe you should change your maid for a more positive one.' (Actual quotes.)

And these people will have been until very recently ordinary lower-middle-class Brits living in suburban semi-detached houses in Nuneaton or Birmingham.

Right. I have lived for quite a few years in the sort of environment you all describe, as have many of my friends in many countries where it is commonplace to employ domestic help; Africa, Asia and the ME. I can honestly say, in all the scores and scores of women I have met and mixed with of many, many nationalities and backgrounds who have had domestic live-in help (including myself) I have NEVER ONCE experienced ANYONE (or at least anyone who might be described as white and western) treat their staff in any of these ways. All of you have trotted out a well worn list of cliches that in my experience just do not bear up to my actual first hand knowledge and personal observations. There are occasionally grains of truth in some of the things said, but they tend to get bloated and exaggerated out of all recognition to me, so that monsters are created to serve the purposes of people who like to tell these stories about us 'spoilt' bratty expats.

Plenty of domestic workers do get treated exactly as you describe, but I'd say it's almost EXCLUSIVELY by Arabs, Egyptians, Iranians, Pakistanis, or other ME/African/Asian people from (almost always) Muslim cultures. And they have been born to having staff and don't see it as a privilege but a birthright fitting of someone of their social standing. Actually, relatively speaking, they are not always even that well off or high born, they are just arrogant, proud and entitled, and if someone else is poor they are there to be exploited.

Occasionally - and this isn't going to go down well but it's the truth as I see it so I am going to say it anyway - you will come across someone who has a British or Canadian or American passport but who is of Muslim culture even if they've lived most or all of their lives in the country of their citizenship. They can tend to 'revert to type' once they start mixing with lots of other Arab and/or Muslim expats and they seem to quickly lose (if indeed they ever had) the same sense of morality or guilt or shame when it comes to treating their staff less well than basic decency dictates to us that we should.

For example it's not unusual to see maids working on Fridays which should be their only (contracted) day off. But the 'madams' seem to figure that as they can't be trusted to go out alone anyway, what's the point of a day off? If they are home they may as well work and mind the children while they enjoy time with their husbands.

They very much buy into the 'can't let her out of the house unchaperoned, she'll be on the game before you know it and she'll bring the police to our door or end up pregnant' or 'must keep hold of her passport in case she absconds with all our jewellery' line of thinking.

Actually all those things happen, not often, but more often than some of you lot might like to believe, but almost everyone I know takes the view that it's the risk you take for being privileged enough to have staff, it's not a reason to be a cunt to them and deny them basic freedoms.

The only people I know personally who don't bother to say please and thank you while their maids fetch and carry coffee and sandwiches are British Pakistani and Canadian Syrian friends, much to the bewilderment and slight irritation of the rest of us. The vast majority of other 'western' women I know wouldn't even ask their maids to serve drinks and food to their friends. It seems ludicrously grand and pretentious. If someone comes for food and drink at our house we do it ourselves. A bit of help prepping in the kitchen beforehand is the most we expect, because frankly that's what they are there for.

Honestly, I do not know ONE SINGLE 'western' non-Muslim sponsor family (and I've known probably a couple of hundred over the years) who does, or condones any of the things you've described. They all pay their helper well over the minimum legal rate, they never fail to give them at least one day off but often two, allow them to go out and socialise with their friends, to come and go without permission or prior arrangement (within reason, once the day's jobs are done) allow them to take private work on the side to earn more money if they wish to, many have boyfriends and I know of some sponsors (me included) who allow their boyfriends to stay over at weekends or when we are away on holiday. I have never seen anything that comes close to abuse or mistreatment ever, in all the years I've lived this live. But I hear about it. Always Arabs though - always.

As for the sleeping on a mat on the floor...well I don't do it, my maid's room is big enough for a proper bed and would never move into a house that didn't have an generously sized room for her, but many maid's rooms are little more than large cupboards. They are still building (enormous) houses like this now, which makes my blood boil. All that excess space and you expect people to put their helper in a cupboard? Shock But many people (again, mostly Arabs) have no problem with this whatsoever, they don't give a stuff, hence why the builders get away with it. A proper 'western' sized bed wouldn't fit in those rooms even if you wanted it to and if your employer has chosen and paid for your house (as is common with teachers for example) then you are stuck with that, if it's your only spare room and you need a nanny/maid because you work, then there they must go. But given they don't expect better/bigger and haven't always come from better/bigger, the people who are often most freaked out by it are us!

The simple fact is IT IS TRUE that many of them come from cultures where a padded mat on the floor is absolutely the norm, and may even possibly be their preference in some cases. It doesn't 'other' them to acknowledge that. Just because you don't want to sleep on that and have never seen it as normal, doesn't make it beyond the pale or abnormal for someone else who has never known any different.

An analogy would be: Would you INSIST that your Sri Lankan helper uses cutlery to eat dal and rice instead of eating with her hands, because you yourself would not wish to be made to eat dal and rice with your hands? Just because you'd be a bit HmmConfused if someone didn't offer you some cutlery, doesn't mean it bothers other people who have been eating wet food with their hands their whole lives. You are making the mistake of thinking they have the same cultural expectations and preferences that you do.

I would never excuse or justify abusive treatment of domestic staff but honestly, some right old claptrap is spoken on this subject by people who have never experienced it or have just seen/heard snapshots of someone else's set up without living in that environment and fully understanding all the many complex issues that surround it.

As far as doing the 'pile of CVs' thing goes, again it's not something I've known anyone do, I've never even heard that sort of discussion, but it's a simple fact that not all maids are fabulous, selfless Cinderellas who are brilliant at their jobs. Some of them are liars, thieves, moaners, manipulators or just crap employees who will take the piss given the chance just like anyone you might encounter in any other workplace.
Sometimes someone gets the sack.

Occasionally the boss needs to get a bit assertive and that doesn't come naturally to most people who are not culturally accustomed to having domestic staff. I could see why someone struggling with managing their maid might resort to the CV thing or something similar, as a way of subtly getting the message across that they need to do better.

It's very rare in my and most of my friends' experience to have an issue where you might need to pull rank a bit, , but it's not totally unheard of. You are their boss after all. God forbid that we should expect them to have minimum acceptable levels of performance, just like the rest of you who manage an employee at work might. Hmm

mommybunny · 09/05/2017 13:52

France is very much what you give is what you get.

I am not a fluent French speaker by any means, but I politely, with a smile, asked for a glass of wine in halting French in some cafe near the Champs Elysee, and the waiter grinned at me and answered "avec plaisir, madame". It can happen!

amusedbush · 09/05/2017 13:53

There was a C4 programme about it recently.

I saw that programme. It was pretty shocking that they are just given the shit that NZ doesn't want to eat!

Puzzledandpissedoff · 09/05/2017 13:56

It's fascinating how (the Amish) go about their daily lives while being constantly stared at and photographed by hordes of tourists

I couldn't agree more; there was a group of them visiting when I went to the zoo in Washington DC, and from the gawping which went on you'd have thought they were one of the exhibits Sad

And on the subject of geographical ignorance in the USA, I once told a 12 year old American lad I was from the UK, only to be asked "which state is that?" I genuinely thought he was joking, but unfortunately not ...

Puzzledandpissedoff · 09/05/2017 14:08

Has anyone ever experienced "service with a smile" in France?!

Constantly Smile I've even had someone lock up their ticket office and take the time to show me where to go when I was unsure ... and that was in Paris

Like mommybunny I really think at least some attempt to speak the language is important; I'm lucky to be fairly fluent, but even a few words (along with a smile) can go a very long way

SenecaFalls · 09/05/2017 14:12

Is this because the films pander to a stereotype based in fact that there is a lot of weirdo psychos in the South? Or has the film industry itself created our perception that all serial killers come from the Deep South so now we are all scared????

It's the latter. Most serial killers in the US are men and most have not been from the South. I was born, grew up, and still live in the Deep South and actually have managed to live my entire and rather long life without having once encountered a weird psycho. Weird folk, yes, but no psychos.

Speaking of Edinburgh and in response to other posters' comments about it being somewhat unfriendly, in my late teens, I went from a small town in the Deep South of the US to university in Edinburgh. I found it very welcoming and continue to find it so on visits back through the years. I do agree that Glasgow is even more welcoming; it's the friendliest city in the UK, in my experience, but Edinburgh remains my favorite place in the world.

Chavelita · 09/05/2017 14:30

I would never excuse or justify abusive treatment of domestic staff but honestly, some right old claptrap is spoken on this subject by people who have never experienced it or have just seen/heard snapshots of someone else's set up without living in that environment and fully understanding all the many complex issues that surround it.

I don't know where you're getting that I 'haven't experienced it' or 'don't understand the complex issues' both of which are common defensive mechanisms from people who feel attacked I lived in both Dubai and Abu Dhabi, worked for The National and spent a lot of time looking into maids' lives, and those quotations are, as I said in my post, verbatim quotations from (white) British expats I met there from a diary I kept. The woman who got her maid to jump into the pool was from Sheffield, as far as I can remember -- I left in 2010.

I fully understand the issues. What I also became an appalled witness to was the extent to which formerly presumably level-headed Brits within a month of arrival were regarding seatbelts as optional, maids as compulsory, seeing nothing wrong with the paternalism of the khafala system, and regarding some unexceptionable Filipina as a combination Mata Hari/benefit scrounger who hasn't magically grasped UK childminding norms.