Child Maintenance Service users - step this way please! MNHQ here

[RowanMumsnet]

Hello

As a part of our campaign with Gingerbread and the Good Law Project to Fix the CMS, we wanted to flag up that the National Audit Office is asking CMS users to fill in this consultation about their experiences.

The NAO is conducting a 'value for money' review of the CMS to find out whether it's meeting its objectives and providing good service, so please do fill in the consultation if you're a CMS user.

[POST EDITED BY MNHQ TO ADD: The NAO has been in touch with the following:

"Thank you also to those who have pointed out that the options we have provided for parents to explain their involvement with the Child Maintenance Service are not clear. Please accept our apologies. In particular, people have pointed out that respondents cannot identify as being entitled to child maintenance but not receiving it, or identify as a parent who is obliged to pay child maintenance but isn’t."

"If you should be receiving child maintenance but are not, please select the option of being ‘A person with main care responsibilities (receiving child maintenance)’. You will be able to tell us later in the survey that you are not receiving the maintenance you are entitled to."

"If you are a parent who is supposed to be paying child maintenance but are not, please select the option of being ‘A person without main care responsibilities (paying child maintenance)’. You will be able to tell us later in the consultation that you are not paying the child maintenance you owe."

"We will also read and use contributions from parents that have already used the “other” category."

"We can’t make changes to the consultation itself, because that would make it difficult to interpret the results we have collected so far. However, we have added additional help text to the survey to make it clearer."]

In addition, Gingerbread have asked whether any CMS users have recent experience of the CMS writing off large sums owed by non-resident parents. If that's happened to you in the last few months we'd like to hear about it.

Thanks
MNHQ

PS If you'd like to be kept up to date with all Mumsnet's campaigning activity and actions, please sign up to our email list here.

We should start another petition as the last one was cancelled due to covid. We need to get this to parliament so it will be debated how serious this issue with incompetence is. It needs to go to a higher level than the local MP if things are not changing as a result.

What they need to do is set an amount per child and have the government pay it. The NRP then has to pay back the government. That will soon get things moving and see them take enforcement action against non-payers.

That’s a good idea

@cookiemonster5

What they need to do is set an amount per child and have the government pay it. The NRP then has to pay back the government. That will soon get things moving and see them take enforcement action against non-payers.

This ^ I've always wondered why not do it this way anyway, much easier to take it from their earnings too.

And/or allow the resident parent to sue in court too which I think may not be an option with the CMS (so that if the CMS does nothing then the parent could go to court instead as an extra option - not that either option works very well)

Completed, thanks. CMS seem to have wiped large amounts of arrears, against my explicit instructions. I didn't make a complaint as they won't get anything out of him now so it's all academic, but it felt like a final kick in the teeth.

Here in Scotland not sure about England if you quit your job your not entitled to UC at all for I think it’s 13 weeks or it might be 26. They keep changing it

I was asked to write of my exes arrears I refused and receive £25 a month when he can be bothered to send it as Covid happened he’s been allowed to get away with it.

When I first split from ex he paid monthly with out fail met one of many of his girlfriends I got nil so went through the CSA. I waited 6 months as they had to arrest his wages before he’d pay it. The fukker had been under paying me by £300. Thankfully he didn’t quit his job but tried the I can’t afford it bollocks and some months he got his bosses not to do the WA. They fined his bosses so they didn’t do that again.

So now it’s the arrears only.

You can sent to prison for non payment of council tax but non payers of child maintenance are allowed to get away with it.

The government ought to do something about it considering it's the welfare state that ends up financially stepping up and supporting lone parents.

My recommendation was that no NRP should be allowed to just not work.

Agree with that

Bet the NRP will soon get a job if that's the case.

Definitely

I don’t understand why any divorcing RP doesn’t do

When I was divorcing I was told child maintenance could and would not be dealt with by the courts - and where would that leave RP's who were never married to the nrp anyway? Your posts are all a bit "I'm all right Jack" I'm a bit puzzled why you'd even comment on thread if you've never used the service?

To me it seems they favour the NRP more than the resident parent.

Of course. Misogyny at work in the real world

@creaturcomforts you have nothing to apologise for we get it

@ilovepixie tbh I think maybe he doesn't have to legally, BUT if the child is on benefits and is under 18 still then morally I think he should. In all likelihood her mum
is still giving some financial support why shouldn't her dad? Children/young adults don't suddenly become completely financially self sufficient at 18 depending on circumstances. Students at uni before the age of 21 are still considered by the govt to be supported by the rp and even step parents (which is a whole other discussion!) and their loans reduced accordingly so why SHOULDN'T NRPS have to continue supporting THEIR children as the rp does?

@Seymour5 thanks for the support

It's socially acceptable even lauded to not pay the rp and nrps who find and exploit loopholes are congratulated by their peers! This is what needs to change and legislation can massively help - like happened with drink driving and seat belt wearing and to a degree smoking in public

@SpaceRaiders agree re Johnson but the problem and the stigma goes MUCH further back than him. Single mothers have always been the ones stigmatised for BEING single mums while the fathers have received little if any censure

Lets also add in the time his employers attempted to defraud the CMS

Yes! Employers that are complicit in the frauds should also face legal action. There are 2 employers where I live that are known to provide false pay slips and paye records in order that their nrp employees keep their cm claims to a minimum so, make out they are only paid nmw when they are actually paid around double under the table. Several rps locally have reported to cms AND hmrc but precious little is done. They occasionally are fined what appears a large sum but is actually a drop in the ocean compared to profits

The data protection breaches you report are horrific and shocking! I hope you and dc were not harmed as a result ?

Wouldn't it be amazing if at some point in the not too distant future thousands and thousands of women ended up getting compensation (ie the actual money owed) because CMS became the next PPI scandal?

We can but hope

why can’t a government department take money out of the salary from someone who works for the government

This is something I struggled to understand. The govt were employing and paying my ex so they knew exactly where he was at any given time and had access to his salary info and indeed his salary. Talk about left hand hasn't a Fucking clue what the right hand is doing!

I would urge anyone with problems with the CMS to go to their MP.

Did that several times. It works initially but then things revert

At one point I was calling Mp, hmrc, his employer pay dept and csa weekly and still getting bugger all!

@Graphista I completely agree, the issue predates Boris. I just meant that if MPs themselves are NRP they’re highly unlikely to vote for measures to enforce maintenance. My own MP was of no use.

This needs a national campaign to not only raise awareness but to bring a change in policy. I would have thought a charity like Gingerbread would have done so already. When I speak with married or childless friends who have no experience of the maintenance system, they’re absolutely appalled.

Another issue that rankles is the courts still insist that contact costs must be shared by both parents. RP effectively subsidises NRP’s contact costs in a situation where they are either paying pennies or nothing at all. Even when “unemployed” and not contributing a single penny, the expectation was that I continued to deliver dc 35 miles away at a time which was impossible with work. The costs of which I shouldered for over 18 months before putting my foot down. And before anyone jumps in with the whole “children aren’t pay per view” rubbish, I strongly believe it’s each parent’s responsibility to maintain their relationship with each child. If you simply can’t be bothered to do so, that’s on you quite frankly.

I just meant that if MPs themselves are NRP they’re highly unlikely to vote for measures to enforce maintenance

Oh definitely!

This needs a national campaign to not only raise awareness but to bring a change in policy.

Yes!

RP effectively subsidises NRP’s contact costs urgh - a case of don't get me started! I moved away from where my ex and I were living at the time - a place NEITHER of us had links to other than his job (army) - we split to be nearer my family and ex kicked off big style! He managed to make me feel so guilty that for several years after I facilitated, organised and paid for all contact until I could no longer cope financially or practically. At which point ex (who could easily afford) gradually over a year reached a point where he not only stopped having physical contact with dd he wasn't even phoning or sending texts and the next birthday card was weeks late. With hindsight I let myself be taken for an utter mug! And I made things a lot harder for dd than they needed to be

Off topic somewhat but literally as soon as we split (ex was a 10 min WALK away from where dd and I were living) there was lateness, cancellations and excuses. I wish I had known then what I know now, I wish I'd been on mn then and I would have known to just let him vanish out of dds life as he clearly wanted to (except he wanted to do it in such a way as he could blame me - which is exactly what he does) at an age when dd wouldn't have known much difference and could easily have forgotten him. It is advice I now give on here based on my own experience "if he's not making the effort don't make it for him, it doesn't serve the child/ren in the long run" I have seen the effect on dd and it's heartbreaking!

I very much regret that. Quite honestly if that also meant no cm it would have been worth it - it wouldn't have been right! But it would have been worth it.

When I was first claiming csa (as was) I actually had no choice, because at that time to claim income support on the basis of being a single mum you HAD to claim UNLESS you could prove serious domestic violence - I think a lot of younger single mums don't know how bad it was. I had a friend at that time who had been the victim of domestic abuse but which (as is common) she had not reported while in the relationship. She finally found the strength to leave, managed to get an address he didn't know about...and then had to disclose this to him to claim csa as she was claiming income support as she was in no shape mentally to work and her kids needed time with her home to recover from all they had been through too.

In addition any csa CLAIMED was deducted £ for £ from benefits - whether you received it or not. So eg my ex was initially meant to pay £30 a week (he was on a good wage!) and so £30 a week was deducted from my IS even if he only paid £5 and he wasn't pursued.

As a result in order to ensure dd didn't miss out I missed meals/food, didn't have the heating on except when she was home, so I spent a lot of time at libraries and community centres in the winter when she was at school so as to keep warm, I couldn't replace my winter coat or shoes so I have really strong memories even now of have wet cold feet and having to do an amazing acting performance so that dd didn't know. I bought her winter coat and shoes in the spring the year before in the sales, I'd tell her I'd had a really big lunch and wasn't hungry or a late lunch and I'd eat after she was in bed, I've had that experience of being in the supermarket with pennies in my purse and having to decide whether to buy bread OR milk, bread usually won as it was cheaper lasted longer and was more versatile and filling.

Even when I was working I was on benefits as I couldn't find a job that was office hours and therefore could be done around childcare and school holidays.

When the rules were changed about csa being deducted off benefits that was such a relief - but there is still SO MUCH MORE needs to change

I am no longer in that position but I never want dd to be and I don't want any other rp to be either.

So I will continue to comment, and complete surveys and generally hopefully be a major pita to those with the power to change this.

@Graphista
That made me cry.

My DS will be one of those deprived kids that their ultimate Ambition in life is to make loads of money. I've male friends who grew up in poverty who tell me similar stories.
Whilst we all know men like this from the 50's / 60's / 70's etc, I think it's immoral for a child of the 2010's to have a similar drive to remove himself from poverty. He says all the time, when I get a job, when I'm rich, when I can afford it......

@grandmashotdoodlebugs sorry for making you cry

Sadly while we have the govt we do - which the majority of the electorate DIDN'T vote for - little will change.

There is real poverty in this country and there really shouldn't be. It's a disgrace!

I agree with the previous poster, assess and government pay. I'm pretty sure they wouldn't have as many missed payments then!

On a side note, I've had a reply from the ICE requesting further information about my complaint. I have a feeling this will take months too!

Although MPs usually would prefer fathers paid child maintenance than the state picked up the tab - I am not sure MPs do want the state to be picking up on fathers' responsibilities.

The system is certainly very unfair on all kinds of levels. In a sense my children's father choosing almost never to see the children - they never have spent even one night at his house for example (and pays nothing) made it simpler. The fact he wheedled out of me a huge extra sum in our financial divorce negotiation supposedly to enable him to continue to take the children on luxury family holidays just seems funny now....... yet it is working out okay. This coming academic year is the last I will have university costs to fund (our agreed financial consent order says I pay those too) and he has helped to a much lesser extent than I have but still has helped the children with a deposit on a first property son in that way some of his massive divorce settlement and my life savings has trickled back and I certainly don't mind our children having it rather than that I have it.

May be we could set up a system where fathers who say they cannot pay a penny could be required to come into work at centres for 2 days at weekends to work full time and the wages to direct to the children?

All the ones who have self employed ex’s and they are not reporting to hmrc

Report them.

If they are reported, the HMRC are obliged to investigate. They have new fraud detection software. They will pick it up

@Sometimesfraught82

All the ones who have self employed ex’s and they are not reporting to hmrc

Report them.

If they are reported, the HMRC are obliged to investigate. They have new fraud detection software. They will pick it up

That's helpful to know. While I have asked for a CMS fraud investigation I have never contacted HMRC as I was told that if he didn't owe significant amounts eg tens of thousands they wouldn't look into it. I suspect my ex owes close to £10-15k in unpaid tax over about 5 years

100% they will not say this to you.

Data protection if nothing else (I am flabbergasted they even told you this)

They are taking very seriously.

@Sometimesfraught82

100% they will not say this to you.

Data protection if nothing else (I am flabbergasted they even told you this)

They are taking very seriously.

They didn't tell me about what he specifically might owe but in general terms they said hmrc aren't too interested in the 'lower' end of tax evaders. The CMS investigators have said if they uncover undeclared income they would automatically inform HMRC

@legoagogogo

How long ago.
Most definitely the landscape has changed on this front.

Anyone suspecting ex defrauding - report them. Simple as that.

You will not find out outcome from hmrc and you not be kept abreast of developments.

But if they uncover (which they will), you will receive CM based on the hmrcs findings.

Plus - they will be done for tax evasion. So you might not receive as they might be imprisoned!

Don’t report or consult CMs!
Direct to hmrc

[quote Sometimesfraught82]@legoagogogo

How long ago.
Most definitely the landscape has changed on this front.

Anyone suspecting ex defrauding - report them. Simple as that.

You will not find out outcome from hmrc and you not be kept abreast of developments.

But if they uncover (which they will), you will receive CM based on the hmrcs findings.

Plus - they will be done for tax evasion. So you might not receive as they might be imprisoned![/quote]
Haha a good point! I always warned him when he fiddled his tax returns that it could end up in prison and it was nothing to do with me

Is there a box for ‘my ex left the country without telling me and now he doesn’t have to pay’?

Or ‘my ex earned 50% of his income from overtime which was never taken into account when calculating maintenance’?

Don’t worry... I’ll manage

Only £2000... i'm in the 10s thousands! It's so sad and frustrating.

I've just done a quick calculation. Based on his previous wage I estimated that he has failed to pay over £24,000. That's a modest guess on the lower end of his wage. It's made me feel sick.