Everyday Ageism - we're after your thoughts on Mumsnet getting behind a campaign on this

[JustineMumsnet]

Hi all,
Following on from this thread, and now that the decorations have come down (hurry, it's tonight, or possibly even last night - depending who you listen too), we'd like to ask you about whether you feel Mumsnet should get behind Gransnet's Everyday Ageism campaign.

Everyday Ageism is an awareness-raising campaign that aims to identify and challenge ageism; empower people to deal with it; and challenge brands if they fall into the ageism trap. They're planning plenty of media work to gather support, and are asking GNers for their experiences - but if MN's going to get on board it might be nice for MNers to chip in with some ideas too.

So please let us know whether you'd support MN getting on board with the GN campaign, and if so whether you have any genius ideas for campaign actions (preferably things that can be done online: we don't have the budget for poster campaigns or TV commercials ).

Many thanks.

It may not be ageism by definition but there is a huge amount of vitriol aimed at older people on MN as Dressingdown1says.
It started on here only a few posts in.
It's usually couched in terms of baby boomers being parasites / Mother in Law bashing ( how dare they be mortgage free and yet out of touch with modern parenting?)
I have never thought of reporting these things as ageist as it's not as clear cut as sexism / racism but MN in general does not like older women and I doubt it's a suitable topic for campaign.

ReallyTired Wed 07-Jan-15 11:14:35 I think that access to affordable training is a big issue for mothers in their forties who need to retrain. There used to be evening courses that you could pay for but now everything involves doing a degree or an apprenticeship.
Many entry level jobs are now apprenticeships and are only open to the under 25s. Even men occasionally find that they need to retrain.

This for me is absolutely key. Thanks reallytired for mentioning it. I am experiencing all sorts of ageist issues as I try to return to the work place (professional job).

I don't find this ageism top trumps very helpful. It is like arguing who experiences the worst racism: is it black sub Saharan Africans or Pakistanis? The plain fact is that it does NOT matter. Discrimination is discrimination and a victim is a victim.

We aren't asked to rate the severity of reports on The Everyday Sexism project (ESP). Each report is valid because it just is.

To quote from ESP:

The Everyday Sexism Project exists to catalogue instances of sexism experienced by women on a day to day basis. They might be serious or minor, outrageously offensive or so niggling and normalised that you don’t even feel able to protest. Say as much or as little as you like, use your real name or a pseudonym – it’s up to you. By sharing your story you’re showing the world that sexism does exist, it is faced by women everyday and it is a valid problem to discuss.

Now swap "sexism" for "ageism" and "women" for "people".

I expect that people are struggling because ageism (when compared with sexism, race and even disability) is a relatively new concept, at least in law. I also think this bickering on the thread about who has it worst highlights exactly why we probably do need a campaign.

I agree, MovingOn.

I'm sorry, because I probably set the tone for this discussion in some ways.

But I will reiterate - it is wrong for anyone to experience discrimination because of their age.

I don't think it's your fault biwi :) It was always going to be a tricky one because the Gransnet campaign is actually pretty niche and the reasons for that run deep because we've not yet had enough time pass to reshape the narrative around ageism to be able to define what is/isn't acceptable.

We're just at the beginning of the road. Like the way racism was back in the 1970s when we still had fairly offensive things on tv and in the common vernacular so it's completely natural to expect things to be a bit muddy as people work out the new norms and boundaries of taste and acceptability.

i think people were asking for clarity really as to whether this would be a project concerning itself with all and any ageism or with exclusively with older people being discriminated against in which case it could be better named.

I agree, too, that any age-based discrimination or animosity is wrong. But on MN, the ageism against older people is a much bigger issue. Of course, there are some threads that make offensive generalizations about young people, especially teenagers, but casual, perhaps unthinking, ageism as well as downright pointed vitriol against older women on MN is pervasive.

I lurked on MN for over a year before I joined, and when I first joined, I avoided giving hints about my age because I believed I would be swiftly marginalized. I now know that there are quite a few older people on MN, and also quite a few younger ones who are open to multi-generational discussion. But it is still difficult, and I have come close to flouncing several times. I have found that it helps if you hide Style and Beauty and stay away from MIL threads.

I do think this issue is important and that MN should put its weight behind it. But this thread has shown the importance of being specific about what we are targeting, and I suggest we step back from a general anti-ageism campaign and focus more tightly on the social invisibility and low value put on women in midlife and old age.

I'm still getting my head round this, but some general points that seem important:

• of course ageism can cut against the young, but part of our understanding of this issue has to be the low value put by society on women past childbearing age. Part of the problem here really bad we are at talking about social class on MN - I think young people are suffering some horrendous problems right now, but I'm not convinced it is due to some kind of prejudice against young people; more that they have not been able to develop an economic buffer and so are very vulnerable to the economic climate. That doesn't mean that ageism against young people doesn't exist, but it is less about discrimination against the young as a social group.

• When people talk about 'old people being in power' what they usually mean is that middle-aged men dominate government and industry: how many 85 year old women can you name in significant positions of power, who are not there through an accident of birth?

• I'm getting really bored with the divide-and-rule baby boomer debate. From some MN threads, you would think that everyone over 50 lives in a large house in Surrey, doesn't have a mortgage, and spends their time on Caribbean cruises. We seriously need some class analysis here, and awareness of the feminisation of poverty. Look at the stats on the gender pay gap, public sector redundancy, mental wellbeing, resources for self-care, and poverty, and you'll see midlife and older women faring badly compared to the rest of the population.

• The cultural associations of old age are really significant for women. You probably wouldn't believe, till you've experienced for yourself, the social invisibility, the cultural invisibility, and the volume of cultural messages telling you that you've got nothing left to offer, that to be a 'dried-up' woman is a source of great shame. The older women we admire are, apparently, those who are completely atypical in their ability to stay youthful - next time someone cites Helen Mirren as a role model for old age, I might choke. Someone said to me recently - and i think it's really true - that in the last century feminine identity has strongly located in how women acted - in 'appropriate' female behaviour - but now it has shifted to be located in the body. To be acceptable as a woman you have to look a certain way and be decorative/available to men. Simple as that. Some women (not many) gain professional or business leadership positions that give them some power out of that. More probably look for that power within the family, the one space left to them, and that may explain the dragonish MIL of MN legend.

Well said Devora. Exactly what I was thinking but unable to put into words.

I have only recently realised just how invisible older women are to everyone else, and "older" seems to start around 50. When you've been used to being treated as a normal human being it comes as a huge shock. I will admit to being completely unaware of it as a general concept, although I cringe now to think of my own attitude in my 20s towards women of this age.

Men don't seem to suffer from the same sort of ageism. It really is a problem of a combination of sexism and ageism all rolled into one.

if it was specifically about that and could reflect that in some way it would make sense to me.

i think it's a shame in a way to address it without a feminist face though - the term ageism makes me think of something entirely different to that.

Could someone give some examples of what they mean re being invisible. I'm 49 and can't relate to this at all so wondering if I'm missing something

I am 50 and going about my day to day business I have started to notice I am pretty invisible. I'm average looking and don't dress up particularly or put on makeup and have realised that people don't even look at me at all anymore unless I specifically speak to them. Nobody would get out of my way, hold a door open for me, or even acknowledge me. But interestingly when I am dressed for work and have smartened myself up a bit, done my hair, shoved on some makeup I get a completely different reaction. I have a senior job so immediately get looked at / listened to. The difference is really noticeable.

So I think it is a combination of my age and casual / scruffy dress that marks me out as potentially low status / not worthy of note.

This thread has so many agist comments I gave up trying to identify the worst ones to report!

i have to say I don't have much faith in mn campaigns.
the idea that mn hq want to do a campaign about
yet when they did the "this is my child" campaign, over 18's
not welcome.
(before someone shouts at me, this is true and you only have to look at the threads about it)
mn hq need to get their own house in order first.

I can't see the merit in it other than to raise the issue to be vigilant against ageism.
Ageism happens at every age and all creeds, colours, genders and inclinations.

It's just too big a thing to capture in one campaign as there are societal and economic, historic and political issues, gender and sexual orientation issues linked with each case and in each context.

Fwiw I think an equal pay for equal work is a much better idea for a campaign. If people were paid 20% less because they had blue eyes, we'd all be in uproar, but women are paid 80% of mens salary just because of sexism.

Ironically in order to earn a "mans" wage, a wonam has to work till international women's day, the 11 the March the following year to do it.

Take into account women live longer so need extra payments into their pension in order to maintain their standard of living; women do the majority of the childcare and the majority of the unpaid housework; so we can see why there are so many poor women of all ages, and also so many poor children.

Also keep in mind thet there are many lone parents who are women without any or little financial support and we can see than the amount of economic clout (ie a voice) a woman who is a lone parent is vanishingly small.

If two women are in a relationship their net worth as a couple is a staggering 40% less than a male pair.

Equal pay campaign gets my vote, as I feel most -ism s are economic in nature.

I definitely think there should be an anti agism.campaign, in in my fifties and some attitudes here surprise me.

There are so many different aspects of the subject.

Firstly, old people are not necessarily nice. Many of them are "old bags", just as younger people may be unpleasant. But you can't call someone just "a bag" in current parlance so I suppose we'd have to call them "a right cow" to equal up things!

Secondly, to attach pejorative terms to older people is questionable. But, as I have argued strongly on another thread of this type, you cannot deny that people age. There is no point in people saying their grandmother/auntie Brenda/godfather is hail and hearty at 96 - most old people are not. So some discrimination is obviously necessary - do you want someone of 80 driving your bus or tube train? (And this has become an issue in the US, if you think this is a silly point.)

Lastly, what is older? At 50, I have to keep pinching myself to realise that, well, I'm bloody 50! I think that we have to remember what it was like being young. When I was in my 20s and propositioned (quite properly) by men in their mid 30s/40s, I was "Yeeeeuuuccchhh". People's parents were all old fuddy duddies but probably younger than I am now.

I guess we have to allow young people to be revolted by us and not think that we are speshul.

I think the campaign needs to cover ageism at any age if this is what its going to be called.

MN is rife with everyday ageism tbh, and I think it's too complex a socio economic issue for a simple soundbite style campaign

I'd also like to add-on to what Venus Rising has said about equal pay for equal work, but from an ageism perspective.

Is it fair that I at 25 should be paid less than the person I'm training with less experience than me, just because they are 50? This happens all the time in my place of work. And it's not due to qualifications or experience, its purely because the older person is perceived to be wiser, more dependable etc.

I went for an internal position for the role I do at a senior level. A huge part of this role involves guiding/ mentoring staff at my level through day to day activities. I have been doing that job for 5 years. Two applied (me and another). The person who got the job was from another sector, think Procurement moving to say Manufacturing, had absolutely no experience of the job below them, or the manufacturing process, yet they were early 40s. I get the candidate may have had other strengths however my manager literally told me I was too young to have any chance.

I see this happen all the time and would fully support a campaign about this aswell as ageism against the older generation.

@Samcro

i have to say I don't have much faith in mn campaigns. the idea that mn hq want to do a campaign about yet when they did the "this is my child" campaign, over 18's not welcome. (before someone shouts at me, this is true and you only have to look at the threads about it) mn hq need to get their own house in order first.

Hi Samcro, I think that's a bit unfair and a case of letting the better being the enemy of the good - all successful campaigns need to have a focus in my opinion and TIMC's scope was decided entirely in discussion with Mnetters. Most users seemed to think that it was successful in raising awareness and promoting understanding of what it's like to have a child with SN, which was the stated aim. Are you really saying you'd rather we'd not bothered??

I would have rather you had included adult "children" as well, rather than cutting off at 18.
I was shouted down at the time, as people could not see beyond 18.
and as for TIMC what did it do?

@Samcro

I would have rather you had included adult "children" as well, rather than cutting off at 18. I was shouted down at the time, as people could not see beyond 18. and as for TIMC what did it do?

That's democracy Samcro - guess others didn't agree with you. As said I think TIMC did a lot for people's understanding and sympathy here on Mumsnet, certainly lots of folk commented as much.

Is that right Justine? HQ didn't allow over 18s to be used to promote the TIMC campaign?

Gosh.

BrendaBlackhead: I doubt very much that one of MNs battle cries, should this campaign get the go ahead, be about allowing 90 yr olds to drive our buses.

Actually, the more I read about "wah wah I'm 23 and get discriminated against because I'm young and gorgeous and have nice handbags" I doubt very much any campaign on ageism is going to be worth anyone's breath in expressing an opinion on. There is some spectacularly obtuse point missing going on here.

True, not all old people are nice. Nor are all black people. Or all Scottish people. Or all homosexual people. See where I'm going with this?

Probably not given the mince like views from some quarters on this argument.