Everyday Ageism - we're after your thoughts on Mumsnet getting behind a campaign on this

[JustineMumsnet]

Hi all,
Following on from this thread, and now that the decorations have come down (hurry, it's tonight, or possibly even last night - depending who you listen too), we'd like to ask you about whether you feel Mumsnet should get behind Gransnet's Everyday Ageism campaign.

Everyday Ageism is an awareness-raising campaign that aims to identify and challenge ageism; empower people to deal with it; and challenge brands if they fall into the ageism trap. They're planning plenty of media work to gather support, and are asking GNers for their experiences - but if MN's going to get on board it might be nice for MNers to chip in with some ideas too.

So please let us know whether you'd support MN getting on board with the GN campaign, and if so whether you have any genius ideas for campaign actions (preferably things that can be done online: we don't have the budget for poster campaigns or TV commercials ).

Many thanks.

I think the objective as described in the link is a good idea but that objective doesn't match the title. Ageism is not just about the over 50s, it is about anyone who is treated less favourably because of their age. So I would support this if you expanded it to include instances where people have been treated less favourably for being younger too (often happens in work and quite often goes together with sexism too). For example, being passed over for a job because you don't look/sound "old enough" or being paid less than your predecessor because you have less "experience" despite doing the exact same job and meeting the same objectives.

I will confess to being a bit meh about calling it the Everday Ageism which is clearly borrowing from Laura Bate's Everyday Sexism campaign.

So to summarise: either broaden it out to do what the title says or change the title to reflect your objective if it about challenging the marginalisation of the over 50s. And maybe think about the name a bit more.

Exactly what MovingOnUp said

However, I will also point out that ageism is more likely to be experienced by older people.

I agree wholeheartedly that nobody should be discriminated against because of their age, but we need to be careful. We need to recognise that ageism happens to older people in particular - if we argue about younger people as well, there's a danger that this could become akin to the 'what about the menz' whinge of anti-feminists.

Sorry for confused posting - it's late here (I'm abroad with work) and I'm tired/jet-lagged and have just had a large gin

Double

I think you'd need to sort out the ageism on threads first before starting a wider campaign outside of MN, seems a bit potkettleblack otherwise.

I think you'd need to sort out the ageism on threads first before starting a wider campaign outside of MN, seems a bit potkettleblack otherwise.

Agreed. The ageism on MN is awful sometimes. If some ageist threads had been about other groups they would have been pulled.

I'd like to see ageism on threads sorted out too. The amount of OPs that describe an 'old hag' or similar is shocking.

Ageism often intersects with sexism / misogyny and I'd get behind this campaign, but I agree we need to clamp down on it on MN too.

Ageism against the young is a valid concern but if this campaign includes that as well, it is likely to become all about that and older people will become marginalized within the campaign itself.

I agree that tackling ageism against older people on MN is a good first step, and I have noticed a heightened sensitivity from MNHQ since that linked thread, which I really appreciate. Since that thread, every ageist post that I have reported has either been removed or responded to on the thread by MNHQ.

MovingOnUp It's true that sexism is often at play when young women are marginalized, but it is far worse for older women. The intersection of ageism against elders and sexism is a very nasty place.

In some ways though, older people are a very privileged group in UK society. Yes, sometimes unpleasant comments are made against the old, but in my opinion, the agism in society is much more institutionalised towards younger people.

For example- why is it right that people under 25 are only entitled to a lesser rate of benefits than those over 25?
Why are benefits for older people the last to be cut, even though the represent the vast majority of the welfare budget?
Why is your entitlement to minimum wage based on age?

In a lot of the media, a lot of criticism is aimed at young people, not taking into account the changes that have taken place over the last 50 or so years that make it much harder for young people to, say, get on the housing ladder. I don't see much media criticism of older people, but maybe I don't notice it because it's not aimed at me.

When have young people ever actively oppressed older people by denying them their rights?
Is there regular violence from younger to older people based on their age?
What agism do older men suffer from?
Is name calling really the most important age-related issue to address in UK society?

I do think older people are more likely to suffer from "everyday" agism, and I agree that we should not discriminate on the bounds of age. However, there is absolutely no basis to suggest that younger people are a privileged class in the way men, white people, straight people etc. are. In many ways, older people are much closer to the definition of a privileged class- they have much more influence in politics for example.

Can someone link to the evidence that older people are more likely to suffer from agism?

However, I think the name "everyday agism" detracts from the very important campaign of everyday sexism and I think mumsnet should come up with a different name for the campaign if it goes ahead.

I think, if it's only a campaign for older people, that's fine, but the name should reflect this in some way.

I also agree that young people are more likely to struggle to find employment, or progress in that employment due to age- I believe they are also more likely to be paid less, even with similar experience.

Perhaps it won't work. It will bring out the obvious antagonism that often prevails on MN against older generations, especially Boomers, which this thread is already evincing.

Scone I assume your remark was aimed at me? I didn't intend my post to be an attack specifically on the baby boomer generation. However, I do think if you are going to talk about agism, you have to have a proper conversation about who is discriminated against and how, and why.

I think older women are often the subject of ageist language (although I think it's also usually sexist language as well). I don't think older men are in the same way. As such, I see it as a feminist issue rather than one of age.

In my opinion, younger men are much less privileged in society than older men in all the ways that actually matter.

I think if you want a campaign to target the marginalisation of older women by society, then you need to call it something other than ageism.

I also think you have to accept ageism is a more difficult issue to tackle than most areas of discrimination because the young and the old are discriminated against in different ways. There is active discrimination against young people in this country, whereas there's not really the same issue with men, or white people or straight people.

Everything slow said

My post was prompted by yours, Slow but aimed wider.

I'm broadly with Scone on this one, and I think that if the campaign was along the lines of Laura Bates' sexism campaign the focus would evolve naturally to include both young and old.

I'm not going to get into a debate about who has it toughest with ageism - that's a battle with no winners. Discrimination is discrimination and with ageism it happens to both older and younger people.

My point was that an anti-ageism campaign has merit and so does an anti-marginalisation of the over 50s campaign - but that the current proposal is neither one nor the other and MN/GN needs to decide what it is doing.

Ageism is a legal concept as defined by the Equality Act 2010 so MN/GN can't just decide to title a campaign as "ageism" and then only focus on one group. If they want to focus on the over 50s that's fine but they need to do some more work on the title. If they want to truly tackle ageism then they need to rework their objectives to make it properly inclusive.

Comparisons to sexism and what about the menz is really unhelpful because there is no clear marginalised "other" group with ageism unlike sex, sexuality, race and other protected characteristics. Discriminating against someone because of their age rather than their actions or abilities is wrong and it doesn't matter if it's calling a young woman a "bimbo" or an older woman an "old bag". It's all horrible and I absolutely agree this sort of ageist (and sexist!) language should be deleted on here to set an example; ignoring it is to condone it.

Being old myself will I be allowed to continue to call people old hags, just like blacks are allowed to use the n-word?

My most recent experience of ageism in RL is a colleague being told she is too young for a promotion (described separately from her experience levels). So I agree that either the campaign is carefully defined regarding the type of ageism you mean or it covers all types.

Many black people are offended by other black people using the N-word, so I'm not so sure that is a good analogy.

The n-word is disgusting, I agree, but actually I can see myself using "old hag" if someone is old and horrible, being a bit that way myself.

I think it is the patronising of old people that I have the most difficulty with and the fact that, here in Mexico, you can still put age limits on jobs that there is no rational reason for restricting to a certain age group.

i'm another who doesn't like the name pinching and thinks that if the campaign is only concerned with one age group it should be named accordingly (and without pilfering from another campaign). also another pointing out that as a woman ageism and sexism tend to intertwine, the sexism i experienced as a very young woman taking particular forms, the ageism which i experience now as a single near middle aged woman and mother is different but still muddled in with sexism and the treatment i will receive as i become an older woman will still be a jumble of sexism and ageism.

have to say i'm less concerned about being called an old hag as i age than i am about issues like being denied medical treatment on the grounds of age or being left, as i know several women have been, with a prolapsed vagina because of the sexist/ageist cocktail of seeing a vagina as merely a receptacle for a penis and an older woman as inherently sexually inactive

Thanks for the comments so far. The idea of this discussion is to construct a campaign you're happy with - so nothing set in stone as of now - and hopefully we can reach some kind of consensus, if not then of course we won't be able to proceed.

Do keep the suggestions coming - if the name doesn't work for people then we'll need something else! Thanks.

As someone fairly young (early twenties) I have definitely experienced ageism. However I do believe it is a problem amongst the older generations. Perhaps not more so than against younger folk, however there are many services tailored towards young people (young parents support groups, lots of extra classes, special mother and baby groups, "under 25s clubs" etc) but there is not the same set of provisions available for older than average parents, who could need equal amounts of support.

I do think the campaign should be about all ages, but I think you are absolutely right to focus it on older people.

The casual ageism on MN is abhorrent, and all prevailing. There is hardly a day goes by that some poor slightly over-middle-aged woman dares to look at a baby on a bus, or heaven forbid, in a supermarket, and gets all manner of abuse thrown at her, both from the RL MNer crowing to the mob on here, and as a response from the same mob when she does.

It has increased exponentially over the last few years as well.

I have lost count of the times I have reported comments, and threads for being full of the "I'd have told the old caaaaah to fuck off" classy stuff, only to receive an email back saying "blah blah blah, do continue to waste time report anything you see blah blah yadda yadda".

I reached the conclusion that for MNHQ, sexy fertile, Bobbi Brown wearing, bugaboo pushing, GHD using yobs are more advertising revenue, and more likely to bring you another Penis Beaker hilarious story, so I don't bother now.

But to suggest backing a campaign proposing to do exactly that which HQ has never bothered to on their own patch is risible at best, and hypocritical at worst.

I think that access to affordable training is a big issue for mothers in their forties who need to retrain. There used to be evening courses that you could pay for but now everything involves doing a degree or an apprenticeship.
Many entry level jobs are now apprenticeships and are only open to the under 25s. Even men occasionally find that they need to retrain.