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See all MNHQ comments on this thread

just had a run in with the maternity ward bounty photographer

804 replies

StateofConfusion · 21/12/2012 13:17

And having previously defended them and loved my pictures of my eldest children todays 'rep' has made me agree they need to be removed from wards!

She arrived originally before breakfast turned on the lights and opened curtains waking me and the other Mum up, then continued to talk over the peadiatrician who was checking my dd over.

Eventually she sulked off but apparently came back when I was asleep (how dare I?) Last time she came back as I'd just settled dd and was eating lunch which had just arrived.

I said No photos at the minute thanks she got most insistant that its for security reasons?? (I'm going home today) and said she'd just lean round and take them, dd was asleep on my lap in a v pillow whilst I ate. I said again, not right now I'm eating she left brochures and went off muttering quite loudly.

I'm hormonal so ofc this has upset me, but not as much as the first time mum across they way! WHY are these people allowed to just walk around a maternity ward being so fucking rude!

OP posts:
RedToothbrush · 23/12/2012 13:26

I'm seriously considering whether making a FOI request might be an interesting way to go. I'm not entirely sure want the extent and scope of what FOI request are, its something I'd need to investigate, but I think it could be a good way to challenge hospitals and make them accountable if you manage to get the right angle and questions. Otherwise you go at it by writing to politicians/hospitals/journalists with similar questions.

I'm interested in the extent of the duty of care that the hospital has to protecting the data of patients, the training of hospital staff, assessment of the quality/bias of information given out by Bounty and what and who hold Bounty accountable. I'm figuring if you poke the right buttons, you'll get them to shit a brick and realise they are leaving themselves wide open to get fucked if people start to pick up on the real issues here.

My thoughts about the line of questioning is something along the lines of:

I am making a FOI request about the hospital policy about the presence and accountability of Bounty salespeople on hospital wards? I would like to know the following:

ACCESS
When are sales people allowed on the ward? Is this inside or outside normal visiting hours? Do they sell bed to bed? Are they permitted on the ward unaccompanied and unsupervised by hospital staff?

DATA PROTECTION AND PRIVACY
If they are permitted on the ward, how does the hospital ensure that they do not have any access to private or confidential information especially where part of their job is to collect data of patients for financial gain or is on a commission basis?

How does the hospital protect the privacy of patients from Bounty? What measures are in place for patients who do not wish to be approached during their stay in hospital? Does the hospital have a formal system to identity these patients to Bounty without any personal details? Are patients' rights being properly protected?

PROPERLY INFORMED PATIENTS
Are all patients made aware that sales people will be on the ward, before they are approached so they can make an informed decision about whether they want to engage with a bounty salesperson? Is there a procedure in place to make sure that patients are aware of their presence?

SALES PRACTICES
In light of The Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading Regulations 2008 how does the hospital ensure that Bounty does not pursue Misleading or Agressive sales practices?
With particular reference to Aggressive commercial practices, the trading regulations state that:
In determining whether a commercial practice uses harassment, coercion or undue influence account shall be taken of?
(a)its timing, location, nature or persistence;
(c)the exploitation by the trader of any specific misfortune or circumstance of such gravity as to impair the consumer?s judgment, of which the trader is aware, to influence the consumer?s decision with regard to the product;
How is this ensured in a hospital setting with patients who are a captive audience and who may also be under the influence of drugs, be in a heightened emotional state, recovering from a traumatic operation, suffering from a lack of sleep following a lengthy labour or otherwise more vulnerable than normal?

With particular reference to Misleading actions
A misleading omission can also occur where a trader fails to identify the commercial intent of a practice, if it is not already apparent from the context.
Are these people clearly and easily identifiable as being not part of the hospital staff at all times?
How do the hospital ensure that patients do not mistakenly think that Bounty are not in any way affiliated to the hospital?

TRAINING AND RESPONSIBILITY
Who is responsible for Bounty Salespeople on the wards? Are any hospital staff on the ward trained to identify aggressive or misleading sales practices to ensure the protection of patients?

Does the hospital train Bounty staff in anyway about sensitivity, respect and privacy of patients?

QUALITY OF INFORMATION
How does the hospital ensure that information being provided by Bounty on behalf of commercial organisations is in line with current Department of Health health messages and/or BFI accreditation where applicable, with particular reference to breastfeeding/weening? Are they regularly checked?

COMPLAINTS
How does the hospital deal with any complaints about Bounty staff? How accountable are Bounty held for any breeches of privacy or inappropriate sales practice?

CONFLICT OF INTEREST
How does the hospital balance its own financial interest in Bounty being present on wards with the interests and protection of patients?

What do people think?

MrsReiver · 23/12/2012 13:31

Have a look at her website here.

The forum is busy so I imagine advertising brings in revenue.

swallowedAfly · 23/12/2012 13:40

given that legislation on aggressive selling they have absolutely zero justification for allowing them on the wards.

also they do, ime, present themselves as officials rather than sales rep - hence the constant 'you have to give us your details in order to claim child benefit' and as i recall they were also giving out the information on how to register a birth and the forms you needed.

think there is very clear transgressions of law here.

Yddraigoldragon · 23/12/2012 13:44

It seems to me that this is something that Newsnight or Watchdog could cover?

RedToothbrush · 23/12/2012 14:15

They should cover it. There is a clear problem here.

What amazes me is the fact that, to date, no one seems to have which baffles me. Which always makes me question why.

I'm guessing there's probably some sort of institutionalised sexism going on here, and maybe people just haven't picked up on the right angle to go down with it yet.

I do think if you can identify a breech of something and demand accountability from the hospitals rather than going after Bounty then you stand a chance of getting some sort of a response though.

IneedAsockamnesty · 23/12/2012 14:19

I think its pretty safe to say that given that the NHS provides them with 'customers'
Gives them a working area, distributes there packs.
Actively encourages patients to use there services
Gets paid by them for doing so

The NHS have knowingly created affiliation with them.

Saccrofolium · 23/12/2012 14:23

Just a quick word about the relationship between the NHS and commercial reps: Drugs reps aren't allowed near patients. They're only allowed near prescribers under particular circumstances, and they're tightly bound by the ABPI which includes a stringent code of practice. They can however, sponsor staff - an example might be paying the salary for a year for a specialist nurse in a particular clinic where they hope their drug will be prescribed. This happens A LOT and is covered in the Trust figures by "service to medicine" grants.

If a company is selling non-drug products then the rules are different. The reps, or other staff in the employ of the company, are allowed patient contact. An example would be a company manufacturing equipment for people with diabetes. Their reps or nurses may run clinics, assist in training patients on product usage etc.

The more the NHS allows this, the more reliant they become on the services provided by healthcare and Pharma companies. And as it stands, it's often a codependent relationship. If healthcare/big Pharma are no longer allowed to sponsor/deliver then they can understandably withdraw support. And that will have a significant detrimental effect on both staff and patients.

To what extent that's the case with Bounty I don't know - they're not a healthcare company, but there are parallels including access to patients.

RedToothbrush · 23/12/2012 14:28

Is it clear in those cases that the patient is dealing with a commercial representative? And are they allowed access on ward to ill patients who have just had a sudden admission? Or is this more for long term chronic illness? The nature and timing of the approach is as important as the location...

bealos · 23/12/2012 14:31

There's this interactive map of where you can get Mama Packs, if you're interested.

Found a place near me....

JugglingMeYorkiesAndNutRoast · 23/12/2012 14:35

Red Toothbrush I love your thorough analysis of things for a possible FOI (freedom of information) request. Seems a very promising way forward. Can anyone say anymore about the process ? Who would you address such a letter to ?

Saccrofolium · 23/12/2012 14:36

That's a good point - for the reps yes, it's good practice to wear an ID badge and be accompanied at all times, and introduced as. " here's Debbie from Bayer, she's going to show you how to work your machine" etc.

For the nursing staff, it depends on their role. If they're a "pump-primed" nurse for example then no, they're just any other member of staff, paid by the Trust, as the service to medicine grant goes into the coffers, not to the nurse. But the department/med director is left in no doubt about the relationship.

For company nurses, they're there in a wholly non promotional role - an example would be a nurse in a GP practice who's only role is to audit asthma/COPD patient notes, call them in and do an asthma review. They're paid by the drug company but are there to offer a non promotional service. In my experience it absolutely IS non promotional and is just a way to build a relationship with decision makers higher up the hierarchy.

iloverhubarb · 23/12/2012 15:01

Red toothbrush, yes to your well thought out FOI requests directed to the Trusts. There are SO many breaches.

RedToothbrush · 23/12/2012 15:27

To make a FOI request I need the name of a hospital where Bounty Sales people have free access to patients on wards and are bed to bed selling. Ideally one where people think they have been twats. Otherwise it seems pretty easy to actually do through the internet.

Name and Shame people!

MrsReiver · 23/12/2012 15:31

I think it would be fitting to get in touch with state's hospital if she's comfortable telling us which one it is.

RedToothbrush · 23/12/2012 15:43

Another question:

What happens if a Bounty Person takes a photo? Are they supposed to ask permission first? And has anyone asked for the photo to be deleted, for any reason, including if pictures were taken without permission?

OhDearNigel · 23/12/2012 15:44

I am happy to deal with the parliamentary side of things. One of my rotary club members is an MP with a very strong interest in health and is on quite a few health committees

JugglingMeYorkiesAndNutRoast · 23/12/2012 15:45

hi Red toothbrush I liked your post so much I've been doing a bit of subbing on it, hope you don't mind ?!

Under Sales practices the last line in the section beginning "How do the hospital ..." has one too many "not"s in it. Needs to read ... "that Bounty are in any way affiliated"

HTH the campaign along a bit further !

Right, who shall we send it too ?!

OhDearNigel · 23/12/2012 15:50

Why don't we set up a facebook page ? I don't mind doing that tonight. We could also do a proforma foi letter that we can print and send to our local trusts.

JugglingMeYorkiesAndNutRoast · 23/12/2012 15:55

Great idea Nigel - especially the print and send FOI letter.
I think that could definitely stand a very good chance of getting rid of them !
It would be quite a pain for the trusts to go through it all and provide answers and they may then realise, like many of us Mums have with the Bounty packs, that they really are more trouble than they're worth Xmas Smile

JugglingMeYorkiesAndNutRoast · 23/12/2012 15:56

Of course the Bounty packs themselves are the least of the problem, it's the Reps behaviour that has so often been truly shocking Sad

RedToothbrush · 23/12/2012 15:59

Well if we can finalise a FOI request, you can make FOI requests here:

www.whatdotheyknow.com/

It seems to be free to do too. Not tried yet though.

And Bounty kindly have a list of all the hospitals they work in... In theory we could FOI the lot of them!

OhDearNigel · 23/12/2012 16:50

facebook page set up (it's really basic at the moment as I'm at work so will do some stuff on it tonight when I get home)

www.facebook.com/SayNoToBounty

Xenia · 23/12/2012 17:07

FOIA - you can write to an individual hospital . I suspect only they have data about whether their hospital has a contract with Bounty or any of its competitors. You could ask to see the contract with Bounty (they can cross out confidential bits like the fees they pay the hospital probably).

You can make FOIA requests to see documents they hold, minutes about the issue etc. I am not sure they would answer a long list of questions but try. They are 40 days to respond. I doubt the DoH has all the data so a request to every hospital would be needed. Some of Bounty's rivals might be happy to help you too for obvious reasons. Soine hospitals refuse to have contracts with anyo f these organisations on grounds of principle. On the other hand it can be useful extra revenue and there are mothers who do like the free things they are given and the chance a photo.

SuffolkNWhat · 23/12/2012 17:15

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

RedToothbrush · 23/12/2012 17:16

If they don't have policies on the conduct of Bounty on their premises and how they protect patients, THAT in itself raises questions.

Which is partly why I'm thinking asking a bunch of questions is appropriate to see if any hospitals who deal with Bounty have properly addressed any of these concerns.