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Natural twin delivery - how long did your hospital 'allow' for birth of 2nd twin

56 replies

e3chick · 12/09/2009 19:42

What I mean is, what is the interval between birth of twin 1 and twin 2 that was acceptable in the protocols of your hospital (if you found out). I have visited one and it was 40 minutes, another said 20 minutes.

I am just interested in how much it varies to see how arbitrary the time limit is.

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me23 · 12/09/2009 19:46

Ours is 20 mins which is ridiculous! and you have to give birth in theatre on the table which is not conducive to the best positions to give birth in!

throckenholt · 12/09/2009 19:53

20 minutes is not long - I think up to an hour is not unusual.

Mine were about 20 minutes apart I think (it was 6.5 years ago so I have forgotten !).

NotQuiteSoBigBird · 12/09/2009 20:07

Mine said 20 mins then they would start to get antsy - I just about managed it but with a good labour. My friend had them in hospital down in Wales and managed to make them wait 2 hours for her - I am in awe, she put her foot down (probably literally as well as metaphorically ), made her hubby clear the room, and just let it happen naturally. It would take a strong character to do that though. They spout lots of stuff about blood shortage/brain damage and scare the hell out of you. But if you felt confident enough in your body and being in tune with your babies...?

duckyfuzz · 12/09/2009 20:09

20 mins here, twin 2 was breech and got stuck half way out, they basically ended up pulling her out as she wasn't getting any oxygen (sorry if TMI!)

e3chick · 12/09/2009 20:31

Well the 40 minutes hospital I went to start giving syntocinon as soon as twin 1 out as they said contractions can tail off - but the syntocinon is given regardless of whether that is the case for each woman or not. The 20 minutes hospital waited 20 minutes before getting antsy and giving the syntocinon.

I think it is the risk of placental abruption isn't it??? I am going to ask the consultant next week.

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frumpygrumpyisacoffeeRevel · 13/09/2009 11:09

My hospital suggested around half an hour but they were quite calm about it. In the end, I had 17 minutes between DT1 (head down) and DT2 (breech).

curiositykilled · 13/09/2009 13:26

Our hospital's policy is 20 mins based on their twin guidelines. I am working with the hospital to produce a general care plan which works outside the guidelines. They have been very, very good. I would recommend speaking to the consultant midwife, getting a copy of the hospital's twin guidelines and seeing if you can produce a plan which you are all comfortable with that works outside it.

We transferred our care to a bigger hospital with a specialist twin clinic and a consultant midwife for normalcy - it is worth checking if your hospital has one of these if you are wanting to discuss the necessity of the various planned interventions.

My hospital's guidelines recommend routine monitoring from early labour (twin1 on internal scalp electrode), epidural anaesthetic and intervention to reduce the time between delivery of twin1 and twin2 and intervention (aided delivery, turning baby, section) for breech/transverse presenting twin2 if baby won't turn.

When I have been planning my birth these are the things I have considered and found out:

The routine monitoring is based on multiple gestation being 'higher risk'. There is no research on the effect of routine monitoring during twin labour (hospital's own twin guidelines even confirm this). It could be advantageous or disadvantageous, they don't know. They want the internal monitor for twin1 so they can be sure of getting a good trace for both twins.

Routine monitoring in normal singleton labour has been shown only to increase the chance of emergency section so they have stopped doing it as standard in normal singleton delivery. Obstetrically if twin1 is presenting normally (head down, no maternal problems, spontaneous labour) then twin1's labour should be treated as a normal singleton.

There is a need to monitor twin2 carefully after twin1 has been born because of the risk of placental abruption, moving into a bad position, having to go through the strong contractions of birth twice.

The main reasons for wanting mothers to have epidural anaesthetic is to make it easier to give interventions such as aided delivery of twin2 and section.

Epidural anaesthetic has been linked to increased chance of emergency section, tearing, prolonged labour, increased chances of operative vaginal delivery. I believe that a refusal of epidural, an active labour and the ability to give birth in various positions will enable optimum positioning of twin2 for birth and enable me to have an increased chance of a natural, vaginal delivery with twin1 and especially with twin2.

The main reasons for intervening to reduce the time between deliveries of twins is that prolonged delivery time between twins seems to be associated with problems with the second twin which might affect it's postnatal outcomes and seems to be unrelated to the mother's physiology.

This means they worry about prolonged intervals because they seem to be more often indicative of a problem rather than problem causing in themselves. For this reason I would rather attempt a natural delivery of twin2 before any intervention is given as I would rather it was only given if necessary.

There are different impacts of different types of malpositioning. Persisting transverse lie of one or both twins are good reasons to section, as is footling breech because there is a bigger risk of trapping the cord during vaginal delivery and starving the baby of oxygen.

If twin1 persistently presents in any type of breech or transverse then section is appropriate. If twin2 is persistently footling or transverse after twin 1 is born then the doctor can reach in to turn the baby and pull it out or an emergency section can be done.

It can be appropriate to attempt vaginal delivery of twin2 if it is persistently presenting frank or complete breech as the cervix will have already stretched for twin1 and there is less risk of trapping the cord. This should be supervised by a doctor and with midwives experience in breech delivery.

My hospital has an MLU down the corridor from the CLU. My pregnancy has been straightforward, no problems gynaecologically or in conceiving, my twins are fraternal, on separate sides, both consistently head down since 26 weeks, this is my third pregnancy. I have long labours but easy deliveries, with my first I had an MLU labour but transferred to hospital for oxytocin drip to speed up labour (after 50 hours) but a normal delivery with no intervention and pethidine and TENS pain relief.

With my second I had an uncomplicated homebirth (12 hour labour) with TENS pain relief. I have a hypothyroid which is under control. Basically, I have a near perfect obstetric history. This has enabled the hospital to be very comfortable with my wish for natural delivery without interventions or obstetricians. What things you should prepare for and concede to having should depend on your own personal history and circumstances and so it is necessary to discuss what you would like, ask what the hospital would be comfortable with and why.

The best thing is to find a hospital that you feel is supportive and sensible in their outlook to you as an individual, to think about what you would like, what is sensible and to listen to what the people who will be delivering you are comfortable with and why. Sometimes, if you can explain why you feel a certain way people will become more comfortable with your suggestions, having someone be your advocate can be very helpful.

I am having consultant led care with a midwife led unit delivery. They are going to monitor externally on admission in order to assess me and the babies then revert to intermittent monitoring. They will allow me to be active and to deliver in any position even at the expense of the monitoring if I feel it necessary. I am not having an epidural or any intervention to speed delivery of twin2 (unless necessary). I want monitoring of twin2 after twin1 is born. I will agree to fasting and a line if they feel it necessary. If I choose to deliver twin1 lying down I want a midwife to stabilise twin2. If I need a doctor and one is unavailable I agree to transfer to CLU. They will allow breech delivery of twin2 because the midwives in the MLU are comfortable but want a doctor to supervise it. I am also refusing to let them monitor my feeding on the postnatal ward as I have already breastfed two babies for 10 months and feel if I need advice I would rather ask for it.

Ahh, long post... I feel strongly about being able to get a natural delivery with only sensible interventions as and when they are necessary. I hope the post is of use, I am 32+5 so will let everybody know what things I was allowed and how my birth went in relation to the plan for those behind me.

frumpygrumpyisacoffeeRevel · 13/09/2009 14:43

curiosity wins the award for longer posts than fg

I would only add that from my experience, it can be hard to find midwives who are experienced enough to have the confidence to deal with a twin birth let alone breech/transverse etc. And yet it only compounds the problem if all hospitals do is say "oooh, twins, we CS as routine". Keep going!

curiositykilled · 13/09/2009 15:04

yes fg, I am curiositykilled and I get carried away with things .

The ones who are not experienced with breech are being trained specially for me I wouldn't push them if they were unhappy, that's a good way to make problems. The ones at my hospital were intitially concerned about the breech issue but have all come round and are excited now. The general feeling was once they got out of the 'as routine' mindset they could see how they really felt about it and lots of them were comfortable and had had experience. I'm hoping Simon (consultant midwife for normalcy) will be around for my delivery.

Egg · 13/09/2009 15:16

I had 25 mins between T1 and T2. T2 did have to be ventoused out though as my contractions basically stopped once T1 came out (head down) and T2 started swimming around happily deciding to stay put now he had room to play.

I had a pretty quick labour (think arrived at hospital after 10am can't quite remember - T1 was born just after 12pm), and tbh when I arrived I was left in a room to labour on my own for a while as I had walked in on my own carrying my bag quite happily and they didn't really think I was in established labour (DH on way from work so I got a taxi), and so I had very little monitoring as by the time anyone checked me DD was almost ready to come out.

They tried to keep me from pushing as they were waiting for Theatre to be cleaned from last patient as all twin deliveries need to be done in theatre in case of need for emergency surgery. It was all fine though thankfully.

Nobody seemed to be panicking about T2 taking his time to come out, but thinking about it, I vaguely remember that his heart rate might have been dropping a bit hence the need to ventouse (he was also head down).

Sorry, bit garbled, and can't even properly answer your question as whilst I know the gap between my own twins I am not sure what the standard hospital "allowed time" is.

throckenholt · 13/09/2009 16:37

My consultant suggested having an epidural sited but only used if needed - so that you can have the mobility and opportunity to change position but still have the chance for a rapid c/s should it be needed.

kathryn2804 · 13/09/2009 17:10

Wow, curiosity. You've really done your research!! Amazing!!

Just to go down the epidural route, I'm sure that I ended up having very slow progress which then ended in an emergency c-section for a few reasons. 1. I was induced, the babies DID NOT want to come out, I was 38 +6! 2. I had to lie on my back as was being monitored with 2 outside thingies so I couldn't move. 3. I had decided that I was going to have an epidural because that's what they recommend. I didn't astually need it for the pain. 4. Then I ended up having a reaction to the epidural (so they teold me) which meant i was shivering and being sick, not pleasant!

Anyway, I have no idea what the waiting time between twins was at our hospital as never got that far and being a new first time Mum, never thought to ask!

throckenholt · 13/09/2009 20:21

shivering and being sick

that can be part of labour itself - just before transition - it happened to me and I didn't realise what it was - I manage to throw up all over myself .

I was on a syntocinon drip being induced with my first - I decided at that stage that I needed an epidural - midwife suggested I might have another 3-4 hours to go (given the expected dilation rate on the drip). Half an hour later when the epidural was in, they examined me and realised I was fully dilated (had gone from 4cm to 10cm in about 2 hours !). In hindsight I was miffed that the midwife didn't recognise what was going on.

BKD · 14/09/2009 08:29

Thanks for all the info curiosity- it will also give me the confidence to argue my case for no internal monitoring and no epidural. I had a great birth with my DS so am psyched for my twin birth. I am 28 +5 so a little way to go yet and we need to watch where my placentae are going.

I would suggest getting a copy of the twins protocol from your hospital as it will outline how long they will 'wait' between babies. The central London river based hospital where I am gives 60 minutes, ideally 30 minutes for the second twin, due the risk of placental abruption.

e3chick · 14/09/2009 12:45

Is that St Thomas' BKD? I have the protocol for one hospital - Homerton - and am going to get the Royal London's this week hopefully. I just wanted to get an idea of how arbitrary the guidelines were as that would give me an idea of how much they were based on well researched evidence and how much on a finger in the air method of decision making.

Throckenholt, does that plan of siting the epidural but not having the drugs administered mean you have something sticking out of your back the whole time?? That thought makes me quite squeamish.

Thank you all for input. If anyone wants to add any more to feel free. I feel quite alone and in the dark in all this decision making process.

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londonlottie · 14/09/2009 13:17

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e3chick · 14/09/2009 13:46

Well I think I would be less anti-caesarean if I didn't already have two children that I want to be able to look after too. I am also quite frightened of the prospect of a c/s as a natural birth is what I know and am familiar with, I am scared of the unknown and I am scared of having my stomach cut open, frankly.

If you decide to have a natural birth the best thing you can do is to try to surround yourself with positive people who support you and believe you can do it. A positive, confident attitude will take you a long way. If you are worried about the pain, you could always have an epidural. It has its risks, but it also is something loved by many women. I haven't had any pain relief apart from the pool and a TENS machine, because (I think) I had a lot of support and was lucky to labour for under 8 hours each time. But as long as the labour doesn't drag on for days which can be exhausting, you can do it easily, you have to remember that you are only in pain for the duration of a contraction and in between contractions you will be as normal.
It is difficult to feel positive when your caregivers are already telling you you should have a c/s, though, and you feel you are battling against the tide. I find it very difficult to feel positive when I have been labelled 'high risk' and everyone I see is at pains to list all the things that can go wrong.

I've gone on a bit here and I really shouldn't be on mumsnet today.

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curiositykilled · 14/09/2009 13:56

e3chick - I felt exactly the same. So alone, confused and frustrated. The idea of having the epidural sited is a good compromise but one I'm not keen on personally either as yes, it does mean having it in your back.

It might be more comfortable than having a line in your hand and fasting for a GA though. Some hospitals can't guarantee an epidural for an emergency section if the line is not already sited or the anaesthetic not already administered.

It's just another thing to discuss and think about. If you don't have the epidural administered or sited will you be able to have it in an emergency or would you have to have a GA? If you can't have it in an emergency would you prefer to have it sited or to have a line and fast for a GA if they think it necessary?

frumpygrumpyisacoffeeRevel · 14/09/2009 14:15

The epidural can be sited and left......what is left in is so thin, flat and tiny that, no, you can't feel anything there. There is no big tube or needle sticking out your back. If you can manage to wait and have it very late on you can have as much mobility as you need/like. I think this was key to my labour being short and everything being ready for the big arrival. In the end, my DT2 came breech with no issues but I needed it anyway as I had a retained placenta.

frumpygrumpyisacoffeeRevel · 14/09/2009 14:18

My other vote for it (and I vote for as late on as possible) is that, with emotions running high and energy running low, having it ready keeps things fairly calm. There are no real questions or things to decide in the heat of the moment. You know what the plan A is and you know what the plan B is.

I wouldn't have one with a singleton. If I had twins again, I likely would. Late on.

curiositykilled · 14/09/2009 14:31

Yes, I second fg about the deciding plan A and plan B. I have decided to take my chances and have a GA (have had two before with no adverse effects, good recoveries) in an emergency so there's no point me having an epidural sited. My plan B is GA for section, local anaesthesia for the putting hand in to turn the baby procedure.

I am a bit ashamed as the main reason I would want GA rather than epidural is that I am a doctor's daughter and have a deepset fear/mistrust of doctors. I would not be able to cope with being awake whilst they did things to me. I am also pretty tough when it comes to pain and aware that the procedure to turn the baby would be much more difficult for me with the local anaesthesia but find the idea of that preferable even if it means I'm not up to feeding straight away!

BKD · 15/09/2009 09:12

e3chick- that is St Thomas' and i have the twins protocol if you want me to email it to you (complete with all my scribblings). When are you due? Seems like me might live in the same area as i am in London E14.

I went to a fab NCT twins course yesterday where a lot of the focus was on birth plans, including how to make a c section the best possible experience for you. So, londonlottie, even if you do go down that route I am sure you can have a really positive experience. As for epidurals in situ in case of emeregency, it was good to be reminded in the class that emergencies are not the norm and the percentage of having twin 2 born via c section is small!

Good luck everyone!

duchesse · 15/09/2009 10:32

Just chipping in at this point about CS under GA. I was/am the most rabidly anti-intervention person you could ever hope not to meet. Two weeks ago I had to have an emergency c section for which I opted for a GA for a multitude of reasons. My recovery has if anything been faster from this birth than from any of the previous three natural deliveries.

There are obviously still extra risks attached to a c section, I just wanted to say that it's not necessarily all bad. Where you are in your reproductive life has to influence your decision as well. In my case, this being child number 4, took 6 years to conceive, likely to be the last one as I'm 41, and having frankly no option about how to get her out, the decision kind of made itself. Not sure how I'd feel if it were my first and I was facing a VBAC decision next time around.

GodzillasBumcheek · 15/09/2009 10:44

Farking hell!!!!!

there are time limits?

Am i old? Should i have got 'em out faster?

It took around 45 mins for twin 2 to arrive after twin 1...didn't realise it was a problem!

e3chick · 15/09/2009 14:51

GodzillasBumcheek did they intervene or do anything to hurry you along? Did they all seem calm and serence about the 45 mintutes? Where are you? It does seem that there is some variety in what the limits are, so with some places being 40 minutes and you only being 5 minutes over that you wouldn't have concerned them especially if you were already contracting well. It is probably more of a concern if you do not begin contracting again.

BKD that is very interesting you are just down the road from me. When I read you have a DS I wondered if I knew you, but I don't know any pregnant twin mums near me who have a son, I know one who is 30 weeks who has a daughter - she is going to St Thomas' as well.. how did you get referred there?? I thought they didn't take referrals from outside the area any more. What is the delivery room for multiples like? Do you have access to a pool?
I am doing that NCT class in October, I am glad you say it was good.

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