When to teach terminology

[elfsmum]

Hi

not sure if this is the correct area but here goes.

How/when should we teach our children the correct terminology for different origins and differences in others?

my children are 5 and 7, they were playing at a family party a few weeks ago with other children where all where white apart from one boy.

My youngest was pushed by the boy who was black, and was crying, when I asked him what had happened (I didn't see) he said the boy with the brown face pushed me and I banged into the wall and hurt my head.

In school they have a friend who has red hair, but my youngest will say X with the orange hair (two of them have the same name)

to him the black boy had brown skin, the red haired boy has orange hair.

so he is clearly noticing differences to him and identifying other children in that way.

so he isn't wrong in what he's saying, and I would not tolerate any sort of derogatory comment - so how do I teach him without inadvertently teaching him racisim - ie he would have to know what was wrong to teach him what is right - iyswim ?

Is there anything necessarily wrong with identifying people you don't know by their distinguishing features? I really don't know. Obviously(??) it's OK to say "the boy with blond hair", "the girl with blue eyes", is it not?

Why do you say "he would have to know what was wrong to teach him what is right"?

In any case what I intend to do, if the issue (whatever it is) does arise, is to tell them exactly what I'd tell any other grown-up... Much like Atticus Finch...

I think it's ok for a child this age to talk about 'brown' skin, if that's what he's seeing. I wouldn't say that this is a derogatory term. I think it's important to let him feel that it's OK to notice physical differences (I failed to do this with DS1 and the result was that he became quite anxious about non-white people, because I had made him feel that it wasn't OK to comment on the physical difference). If I had my time again, I would try to be much more relaxed and matter-of-fact about it. If he asks you questions, try to answer them honestly; if he doesn't ask, there's no need to push the issue, I don't think.

I think that you should teach terminology before the need arises if possible. Although it is confusing for children that people with brown skin are black. It might be a good idea to teach them to describe people by clothing etc if they don't know their names though. No one is going to be offended if a 5yo says brown instead of black but X with the orange hair instead of X surname could get a bit tiresome for X and its not a giant leap to 'that really, really fat lady' instead of 'the lady with the blue jumper'
If this is something you are worried about, there are lots of books that show people from different races so you could have a discussion at home. That might be easier than when there is an actual child and parents in earshot.

this one is good because you can talk about different races in terms of monsters (elmo is from a mixed family but his friends family is all blue) and then follow on about how people are different races too such as 'we are white and a is black and b is asian' etc. I don't think that you have to teach what is wrong in order to teach what is right. You can just say we are white and x is chinese without any mention of chinkies etc.
I've rambled quite a bit haven't I

Children will pick up on things you say. So when he says he was pushed by the boy with the brown face, you can say "you mean [his name]" I think even referring to a child as black or ginger is pointing out their differences. There is nothing wrong with children describing them in this way as they would also describe the only white child in exactly the same terms.

But you can teach them the importance of learning names and calling people by their names and not by how they look.

I think if he didn't know the boy's name then identifying him in that way is ok. He didn't use a derogatory term, he was just identifying him by the most obvious distinguishing feature. Although of course it's important that children use one another's names if they know them, which I guess is the next step, as Morticia's Mum says. I wouldn't feel offended if a child identified my DD as 'the girl with the brown skin', but it then depends on how the parent handles it.

thanks for your messages, the elmo book looks really good.

in terms of him needing to know what's wrong to know what's right I like to explain why things are a certain way to my children and I know if I say that people with brown skin are black the next question would be why, their skin isn't black, and other than saying because I say so what alternatives are there ?

he didn't know the little boys name, which is why he identified him that way. he is the son of a friend of my sisters.

this has been on my mind as the little boy in question is one of only a few black children in his school and some of the comments I've been told that have been said around him and to him (by a 7 year old !) are truly abhorrent.

his mum has been really upset, and did say to my sister, yours and elfsmum's children will be able to mix will people of all cultures and skin colour.

when you can clearly see a 7 year old child has been taught phrases that are racist it makes you think about what your child could pick up and I want the teachings he has at home to equip him so that he knows if he hears things like this they are wrong.

But as policy wonk says I don't want him to be over anxious about it either.

Oh and over the leap to "that fat person" my boys know you don't comment about peoples weight - that one has come up - and has been explained in the same context as name calling is bullying and really isn't nice.

p.s. when I said derogatory term I didn't mean I thought him saying brown skin was derogatory, I meant if he said anything that I thought was, like speaking about people who are bigger than him as fat.

although I can't seem to stop either of them pushing my belly and saying mummy why is you're belly sooooo squishy

Are people with brown skin black!? How about Asians? (Sorry for ignorance!) Anyway I'm Malaysian Chinese and have lived here for years and still wonder why Asia seems to refer only to the Indian subcontinent! Then you'd have to refer to all the other countries (and there are LOTS of them) individually, or call people Oriental, which some people don't like .... It's a mine field, isn't it!

I would like to say well done to you as a mother as you have handled this situation with so much thought and with awarness. It is a really hard situation and I am impressed you have given so much thought to what to do and ask for advice...Being a mother does not mean we should know what to do automatically and with times changing saying the right thing is hard to do, well done for being such a caring mum.

slng

I've obviously phrased that wrong. I meant black people are called black even though they have brown skin, rather than everyone with brown skin is called black. Although organisations such as black police officers association uses black to mean anyone who is not white rather than african/afrocarribian.

I agree with the asian thing. In US asian seems to mean the whole of asia whereas here it is middle east, india, pakistan bangladesh etc but not far east. Japan, korea, china, vietnam, thailand etc are all refered to as chinese even though there are over 50 officially recognized ethnic groups in China alone. total minefield.

Back to the original post though, I think if you live in an area where most people are white then I think it is important to teach about race to stop the minority children being in a situation too often where their race is being discussed in front of them. Its not so much that people make offensive remarks (although some people do) its that having attention drawn to your differances can be a bit embarrasing for some kids. Although this can refer to any differance, not just race.

I'm reminded of my friend's son who, aged about 2 said (on watching Top of the Pops) 'look at that pretty black lady'. Friend was astounded, having been led to believe that children don't notice race or skin colour below a certain age (unless parents have pointed it out to them in a racist manner, perhaps). I don't know I'd agree with that - a child would notice someone's skin was black, or brown, in the same way they'd notice the hair was 'organge' - it's the adults which put great importance to these things!

It did take a while to get my dd to refer to herself as 'black' rather than 'brown', but I wasn't too dictatorial about it. I took the attitude that it was more important that she has great self-esteem and self-confidence, which she does.